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Post by MMX on Apr 29, 2014 18:00:41 GMT -5
I love that Meguro lays the smack down on applications that are not well thought out.
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GJEC
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LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
Posts: 3,218
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Post by GJEC on Apr 30, 2014 1:23:47 GMT -5
I watched a youtube last night from an instructor I really respect. He was showing the bunkai for a low grade kata, something I never saw him do in the 70's. He just beat everyone who went up against him. I'm glad Enshin doesn't do traditional kata. Gary
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Post by meguro on Apr 30, 2014 2:35:09 GMT -5
So 30-40 years later, the instructor is demonstrating applications. Did the applications look effective?
I think the main problem with traditional kata is the instructors, among the first Japanese to learn the arts, didn't actually learn anything. We take it for granted today that any instructor has got the proper credentials, but actually a good many are frauds. Imagine the scene way back, when there was no social media, no means of rapidly sharing information, of validation. I'll bet a lot of shady characters became masters and planted the seeds for a lot of the things we disparage today. Your skepticism is not unjustified, Gary. There is a lot of worthless stuff being taught under the umbrella of traditional. I think it's because a lot of the traditional was misunderstood from the beginning.
Certain types of competition can weed out and validate. Without competition, tradition is hit or miss.
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on Apr 30, 2014 11:50:13 GMT -5
It's the reverse engineering that I dislike. People have (in many cases) invented a function for a kata movement, instead of - as logic dictates - trained a movement to fulfill a function.
I'll stick to knee to face combat.
Gary
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Post by meguro on May 1, 2014 0:24:16 GMT -5
I do bit of reverse engineering myself, especially when what I was taught was just too stupid/dangerous. It can be done well or poorly, like anything else. When an instructor does it, it sees to me that the student has been cheated, like he or she has been sold an unfinished product. I suspect this has been the case with traditional karate from the very beginning.
For the past couple years, I have been studying different types of Silat. You would appreciate the honesty of it- technique driven, no guess work, form follows function. It fills in the gaps of traditional karate.
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Post by MMX on May 1, 2014 11:10:49 GMT -5
The nice thing about Enshin(and Ashiara too really) is that like Silat there is no hidden bunkai. All techniques are based on actual stand up situations. It is very modern but does keep the traditional Kihon(to an extent) and the rituals of Japanese Karate.
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shugyo
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Proof Is On The Floor!!
Posts: 76
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Proof
May 11, 2014 10:58:25 GMT -5
Post by shugyo on May 11, 2014 10:58:25 GMT -5
Bunkai and the like: I've only one thing to say...Proof is on the floor!! Either one can or one can't, and the floor's judgment is unbiased, no matter whom one might think that they are!!
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GJEC
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LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
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Post by GJEC on May 11, 2014 14:23:24 GMT -5
Which floor though Shugyo? The well lit, smooth, matted dojo floor or the rough, wet, dark floor on the way home?
I love combat sport and the unforgiving nature of knockdown / sabaki rules. A bit of complexity adds to it and makes you think, a bit like chess with bruises. But outside the mat or dojo I want just two things:
1) less complexity and
2) 100% - or as near as possible - reliability.
Does bunkai fulfill both those criteria? For some maybe, but after 43 years of sweat and 8 dan grades in two TNS styles, not for me.
Gary
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shugyo
Member
Proof Is On The Floor!!
Posts: 76
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Proof
May 12, 2014 16:47:15 GMT -5
Post by shugyo on May 12, 2014 16:47:15 GMT -5
Whichever floor one's standing on at that very moment!!
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Proof
Sept 19, 2014 3:45:37 GMT -5
Post by noahh on Sept 19, 2014 3:45:37 GMT -5
You will find that the over hooks and under hooks in that match are represented in our kata, think especially about Pinan sono san, especially the whizzer takedown/arm bar. Usually, the move is interpreted as a block and back fist, which I 've always thought stupid. That would be the kind of bunkai liable to get you a punch in the face for your trouble. Osu Meguro, Can you elaborate on the "Whizzer takedown/arm bar" just walked through Pinan san in my head and couldn't place it. Can you explain or steer me to a youtube demonstration of it. I enjoy a bit of bunkai, but concur with the merits of kumite too. I sometimes free up the dojo sparring rules to allow application of limited holds/joint lock in the sparring environment, it pretty quickly weeds out the ones that are just never going to happen. Adds a dimension for the students. For safety we tend to keep it light. I don't think it could be described as "tested". The successes I have had with bunkai applications outside the dojo, have been on drunks. There slow, and after they swing they tend to have the malleability and compliance characteristics you don't see in a sober opponent. Again not much of a test, good to have the options though. I hear what Gary is saying though, in the unrehearsed weapon attacks in my dan gradings, I can't remember pulling off a single intricate bunkai. Avoid, Grab, control, then maul took precedence over all that. Osu
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Proof
Sept 19, 2014 4:15:21 GMT -5
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Post by meguro on Sept 19, 2014 4:15:21 GMT -5
You will find that the over hooks and under hooks in that match are represented in our kata, think especially about Pinan sono san, especially the whizzer takedown/arm bar. Usually, the move is interpreted as a block and back fist, which I 've always thought stupid. That would be the kind of bunkai liable to get you a punch in the face for your trouble. Osu Meguro, Can you elaborate on the "Whizzer takedown/arm bar" just walked through Pinan san in my head and couldn't place it. Can you explain or steer me to a youtube demonstration of it. I enjoy a bit of bunkai, but concur with the merits of kumite too. Sure thing, Noah. Refer to the previous page and watch the video of the match. At the beginning, the japanese guy on the right has his back up against the ropes, and over hooks his opponents arm. He spins in a direction the human anatomy does not allow the elbow to bend, taking down his opponent. Now refer to pinan sono san at around the 27 second mark. You will notice the same mechanics, only tradition tells you that you're doing an improbable block, or weak strike with your elbow whilst squating down into a kiba dachi. Absolute nonsense.
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Sept 19, 2014 4:43:42 GMT -5
Post by noahh on Sept 19, 2014 4:43:42 GMT -5
Osu Meguro,
That's great, thanks. You can never have too many bunkai. I confess I never looked at this elbow in isolation before. I have always used it as part of a larger leg claim.
When the Mae geri has been caught (opponent grabbing the shoulder positioned to sweep) Tuck the knee up drawing the opponent in and briefly claiming the centre of gravity, stomp down to free the elbow then breaks away from the hand holding the shoulder. Akin to some of the judo lapel breaks. We raise the knee much higher for the stomp, than in the video above. I have used it many times to reclaim a leg in kumite.
Osu, thanks again "ever the student".
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Proof
Sept 19, 2014 5:52:34 GMT -5
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Post by meguro on Sept 19, 2014 5:52:34 GMT -5
Osu! Noah. Actually, you can have too much bunkai. What I mean to say is that there are very few basic principles. Understand the principles, and you don't need to learn so many applications. If you know the mechanics of a shoulder throw or arm bar, you'll quickly understand how to apply the countless variations. For example, in the over hook arm bar takedown discussed previously, the principle is the exact same one that gives effect to the juji gatame you see Ronda Rousey using so well in the MMA arena. OTOH, you will often see fantastical applications in many traditional kata demos, that are not based on body structure but on pure fantasy. These you can tell because the circumstances are just too contrived, the attacks you are meant to defeat, too absurd. The applications should work in a fight taking place in a phone booth, that mean's one attacker. Every turn is not to meet someone new, but rather to dispatch the guy you once had in front of you.
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Sept 19, 2014 16:15:11 GMT -5
Post by noahh on Sept 19, 2014 16:15:11 GMT -5
Osu! Noah. Actually, you can have too much bunkai. What I mean to say is that there are very few basic principles. Understand the principles, and you don't need to learn so many applications. If you know the mechanics of a shoulder throw or arm bar, you'll quickly understand how to apply the countless variations. For example, in the over hook arm bar takedown discussed previously, the principle is the exact same one that gives effect to the juji gatame you see Ronda Rousey using so well in the MMA arena. Osu! If it doesn't work it's not a Bunkai as far as I am concerned. I appreciate kata as a memory aid for self defence, sometimes I'll be teaching a kata, be reminded of a Bunkai and think "we'll run over that with partners at the end". As for basic principles you mention, without them I think all the Bunkai arguments in this thread about redundancy are 100% true. Situation specific Bunkai are useful as a starting point but if the student can't apply it's principles they'll probably never use it. Students are pretty savey to this, they will call an instructor on it with a "what if?" question, or a "what are the chances?" Sometimes those queries are genesis for new applications other times they reveal a redundancy. I was reading a debunking of the "no touch knock out" (not that it needed anymore debunking ) a practitioner tried to explain why a sceptic wasn't affected. "you can hold your tongue in a certain way, or lift your big toe at the right time and it won't work." Any physical bunkai made redundant by similar small variations is in my opinion equally fantastical nonsense as the NTKO. Osu
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