We live and learn

[GJEC]

Just been down the local park and saw a football coach bawling at kids. They weren't "giving 110%" (no one can) and they weren't "putting the team first".

I listened for a while, slowly shook my head and walked by. The kids looked miserable. Heads down. There were a couple with their heads up. They'll do well despite their coaching, not because of it.

Then it hit me. I used to coach like that. Unrealistic demands. No empathy. Club first etc.

We got good results but I wonder if that was despite some of my methods, not because of them. During my enforced layoff I did some courses and one I enjoyed was dealing with troubled teenagers. The methodology they taught included 'PCC' or Praise, Correct, Challenge. With no great explanations or fuss I've tried to incorporate this into my coaching since I returned. So for example "Come on you're not trying! Let's have it higher and faster!" becomes "Good kick, lift it a bit and see if you can get a bit faster".

Might be a bit soft to some but so far it's working well. No heads down at any rate so that's a good sign.

Gary

[MMX]

Great Gary! Yes I too have been trying that not only with students at the dojo but with my daughter.

[GJEC]

Been doing it at home for a while and my kids respond well to it. (They're not 'troubled' but I wanted to be ahead of the game)

Gary

[Ros]

I think some people probably respond really well to the negative, constant demand type of training and some people will respond well despite it but I imagine almost everyone would respond well to the PCC method.

It can be really demoralising if your instructor doesn't think you're trying hard, of if your instructor basically vocalises that they think you're a bit rubbish and although that can spur some people on, I think far more don't respond positively.

Just reading

Good kick, lift it a bit and see if you can get it a bit faster

makes me want to improve my kicks!

[tmd]

It definitely works, much better way of coaching. being told something need improving you can work on, being told something is rubbish, well most just think it must be rubbish.

I will caveat that though as I was always of the, "I'll show them" mentality so being told something was rubbish made me want to improve it, I have no doubt in the past that meant I defaulted to that method of coaching.

[GJEC]

The original 'Instruction' in the 70's just gave free rein to special forces fantasists and people with a very cruel streak.

It has to be said that some of the early instructors in the UK - in all styles - were just savage, yet people put up with it as to complain would have been seen as 'lacking spirit' and no one wanted that reputation, whether deserved or not.

So a lot of sadistic people had a jolly old time.

Hopefully those days are gone. We have the opportunity now for people to test themselves so in general the sadists and fantasists get found out very quickly.

As for instruction, there's still 'old-school' out there that likes knocking people around. I won't pay for that and I'd never advise anyone else to. Bit too Cobra-Kai for me.



Gary

[MMX]

My Sensei uses Good,Better,Best when he trains us. He will tell you that technique is good(even if its pretty iffy) to get you to do better. When you hit better he will tell you how to improve it for best technique. It seems to work really well. He never berates anyone that I have seen.

[powerof0ne]

I was trained more or less in the old "70s way" as a kid to teen by a sensei who trained in the same dojo as my Dad. My Dad was much nicer when him and I would train at home which gave me some balance. I took the hard training as a way to toughen up fast and around 15 actually thought it was good for me for some weird reason. Obviously not everybody responds this way and I saw a few weird things that I still think of 20 years later happen with various people. For some reason when I started first teaching the children's class because my "70s style" sensei didn't want to I was patient and nice. I never thought it was right to have a power trip with children or anybody really. It's one thing to be strict and have certain lines that you set but to bully people and make people feel bad doesn't accomplish anything positive. I have known and know of many instructors that promote schools where they use various tactics to have students that worship them..and they expect this worship to go on outside the dojo.

Look, a martial art instructor is just an instructor of martial arts. Do you expect your garbage man (I honestly haven't seen a garbage woman take my garbage ever) to know the secret to life? If your instructor expects you to treat him/her like the Dali Lama there is a good chance that instructor is one you shouldn't be learning from.

Instructors that are outright mean all the time in this day and age have some issues. Once somebody passes assessment for Special Forces and the q course the training is usually done in a nice way...it's not done by torturing. Hard? Sure, it's hard but there isn't much yelling when you're being taught new skills and going to various military schools. I can't even remember the last time I was mad and actually yelled at a student that I have taught. I've been mad at students but I don't scream at them.

I only liked training students that had the right attitude..that attitude meant that they would put effort in, want to learn, and enjoy being there. Students that don't put the effort in, don't want to learn and don't enjoy being there aren't ones I wanted to teach as an instructor. This is one reason why I have no desire to try to commercially teach ever again in my life. I guess I'm selfish in a way but in all honesty I hate wasting time on somebody that is an energy drainer, time drainer, and just a drainer altogether.
Osu!

[shugyo]

Yes, Gary, I too use to, what I term, old school my students, and that's because I termed what my Sensei did to us back in the day; he was quite a taskmaster, to say the least. I thought that was the way to be on the floor, but, in short time, I found that that my Sensei's old school way of teaching was all he knew. I tried to adopt it, but choose a different, and much kinder way to teach. Yeah, I'm still old school but with a nicer twist!!

[wullie]

yup, it's a good way to teach, at the junior class i give the kid doing the technique best a high five and then the rest of the kids fall over themselves (sometimes literally) to get the technique to high five level lol!

[noahh]

Osu,

Interesting posts. I tend to mix it up. I think there is a place for rebuke when a student is performing poorly, particularly against what they are capable of. I certainly never humiliate or disparage a student. But telling it like it is has a place. Sometimes a lazy technique is just that, I think people of all ages can be called on their behaviour.

My own instructors were pretty sparse with compliments, those they did give meant more. An over abundance of anything will diminish it's value.

When I began instructing I was all positives, a few years in I did a stock take, remembered what the praise from my own instructors meant to me, and why. I deliberately reigned in the praise and took a more measured approach.

I'm forthright about this practice and remind my students "If I didn't correct or say anything to you during a class, you can be confident you were doing well." When I single someone out for praise, it is that much more meaningful.

I read an article a long time ago that said "there is no such thing as constructive criticism." Fascinating article. To summarise it said how you phrase your criticism is irrelevant if the recipient is closed to it. The phrasing is equally unimportant if they are open to it.

Cultivating a training environment where the students know they are valued and respected and understand their instructor wants them to improve for their sake, not his. This sets the scene for constructive criticism.

If the students don't trust the instructor, then they are wasting their breath shouting, and their praise is equally redundant.

Osu.

[GJEC]

Good points.

I find spreading a little praise helps but as you say, not too gushing and not for everything.

But ranting? Not any more. Even kids just switch off and although adults might tolerate it I see nothing positive from it. Mind you, my whole coaching ethos has changed. I used to go three times a week whether I felt like it or not. Now I teach once a week with a few private lessons as requested.

A lot to be said for doing less and enjoying it more.

Gary

[Ros]

Sept 13, 2014 6:07:31 GMT -5 noahh said:

I think there is a place for rebuke when a student is performing poorly, particularly against what they are capable of. I certainly never humiliate or disparage a student. But telling it like it is has a place. Sometimes a lazy technique is just that, I think people of all ages can be called on their behaviour.

Well, I respectfully disagree. What may seem like 'lazy' to you might be for all sorts of reasons that you don't know about e.g. they're feeling a bit under the weather but came to training anyway, or they had an issue at home, or who knows what. No-one can perform 100% all the time and being called out about it in front of a class of people could be very de-moralising.

[GJEC]

Having been coaching a long time I think I've made every possible mistake.

But the one I regret most was ranting at someone who kept losing her balance on a meaningless turn in a meaningless kata. She dissolved into tears and told me she'd recently been diagnosed with MS.

I've never felt such a prick before or since. I just ask for effort now and make it clear that it's the individual's responsibility to provide it, I just help them direct it.

Gary

[noahh]

Osu.

Thanks Ros. I can see that, there are definitely times when it could be demoralising. I try to be as perceptive as I can with my students needs. Generally I pick up on students in a low place before class. Whether it be life beating them up or just being tired, encouragement will always take precedence when someone is in that space. I also try to get to know my students, there are some who will never respond to a rebuke, others who are best motivated by it. I cater to different learning styles.

I have no desire to kick someone when they are down, literally or metaphorically.

As I said "Sometimes" lazy is just lazy, when I'm confident that is the case I call it.

Knowing the student is key to identifying those times.

Strangely enough I have now and in the past had students, who when they are in the worst of places, really appreciate a good rark-up. They have confided to me "Knowing a lack lustre performance wouldn't stand, forced them out of the funk they were in." Of course you have to identify those students before applying that tactic.

Osu