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Post by MMX on May 6, 2016 13:25:04 GMT -5
Very interesting!!
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Post by slaine on May 6, 2016 15:22:18 GMT -5
Not as radical as I was hoping but interesting nonetheless , good find MMX . |
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azam
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Post by azam on May 6, 2016 17:04:12 GMT -5
Props to the IKO1 for adding these new rules.
I'm loving the new rules - especially the one where if you miss a kick & land on the ground - your opponent can score on you if he hits you cleanly with gedan. I think that right there is a great rule - will give a consequence for any flashy kicks that don't land.
I'm also loving the tai sabaki with parrying & the inclusions of sweeps actually counting for waza-aris (even though they should already).
Just a question - was the fending off with sabaki illegal before? Whenever I've sparred knockdown rules I always parry & strike simultaneously and try to do it off angles - I didn't realise what I was doing was illegal till now. I've always wondered why we don't really see that much sabaki/parrying in knockdown - didn't realise it was illegal...
Love the rules - props to Matsui & co for adding them.
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Post by Tay on May 7, 2016 9:52:20 GMT -5
Great that they're updating the rules to include more allowed techniques and the possibility to score against missed Mawashi Kaiten Geris. For some reason I'm thinking more should be allowed, for example 2 hands pushing and grabbing a kick to kick or sweep the other leg.  |
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azam
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Post by azam on May 7, 2016 10:08:52 GMT -5
^^^
I think it's a balancing act - if you include 2 hand pushing & grabbing a kick to kick or sweep - the fighting gets a bit more messy. I think they are trying to introduce clean techniques so that they are easier to see & score.
I think also there is the possibility that some may abuse the hand pushing & grabbing a kick - by grabbing & not sweeping/kicking or someone that keeps hand-pushing. This makes scoring for judges harder - probably why they have included what they have.
That said I think they could possibly allow more things but I think at least they are going in a good direction (imo). I think if I was them - I'd introduce these things slowly as well to allow each rule to set in & so everyone is use to it.
Plus I think they are the first Kyokushin organisation to update the competition format like this - so props to them for leading the way. I wonder if other org's will make adjustments or keep to already established rules. Definitely feel like imo he's going the right way.
Also I remember watching past tournaments and Matsui was & still has an amazing ashi barai - I can only think of Toru Okamoto being in the same kind of league. I mean they both scored regular sweeps - they were amazing at it but in tournaments neither was ever awarded waza-ari for successfully sweeping other competitors - so I'm glad at least now they are going to score it. It's a legit technique & a technique that should be awarded waza-ari because your opponent is on the floor in a weaker position.
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GJEC
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LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
Posts: 3,218
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Post by GJEC on May 9, 2016 0:50:27 GMT -5
I've reviewed the changes and a don't like them. I mean a kick that doesn't knock the opponent down followed by a punch that doesn't make contact?
Harder to referee and easier to score.
Not an improvement IMO
Gary
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Post by meguro on May 9, 2016 5:30:33 GMT -5
I've reviewed the changes and a don't like them. I mean a kick that doesn't knock the opponent down followed by a punch that doesn't make contact? . . . Good catch!  I'm wondering how significant these changes are when they use language like,"if x, then a point (or fraction of a point) might be awarded." It's as if no changes are actually being made, and that these are only suggestions and not rules to be observed. It could be a cultural thing though (not using direct language). We'll have to wait and see. It seems to me that if they followed the Sumo tradition of any part of the body except for the soles of the feet touching the ground more closely, other rules like pushing only once with one hand, or no grabbing, could be done away with and thereby meet the objectives of making kumite more realistic and possibly more entertaining. With regard to domawashi kaitengeri, how realistic is this technique if a fight might take place on concrete, or if you miss in the street you'll probably get booted in the face by your adversary? It's low risk gamesmanship. Unless domawashi kaitengeri scores an ippon because you knocked out your opponent, at least a half-point should be charged against you for missing because the Sumo rule was not met. Same with pushing or grabbing, as long as the opponent ends up off his feet, it's all good with me. |
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Post by slaine on May 9, 2016 9:58:35 GMT -5
I too would have been in favour of pushing , grabbing and tripping as long as it results in a downed opponent and I have long been an advocate of doing away with domawashi kaitengeri as a stupid technique that should actually result in a penalty instead of being rewarded for attempting it .
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Post by MMX on May 9, 2016 11:20:47 GMT -5
I've reviewed the changes and a don't like them. I mean a kick that doesn't knock the opponent down followed by a punch that doesn't make contact? Harder to referee and easier to score. Not an improvement IMO Gary Yeah I noticed that too. I may be biased but the Sabaki rules are much easier to follow. |
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Post by Tay on May 9, 2016 12:14:27 GMT -5
I too would have been in favour of pushing , grabbing and tripping as long as it results in a downed opponent and I have long been an advocate of doing away with domawashi kaitengeri as a stupid technique that should actually result in a penalty instead of being rewarded for attempting it . agree with this, even though I would say Domawashi kaitengeri's have given us some of the most impressive KO's in Knockdown. So maybe a rule such as 2 failed domawashi kaitengeri's and you get a penalty or something? I don't think they should ban them completely, but maybe have a rule to penalize fighters who keep spamming it. those types of sweeps and throws below are interesting and effective techniques, it would be great to see them more in Knockdown too: |
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azam
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Post by azam on May 9, 2016 12:43:23 GMT -5
I think with the language meguro - the might is an indicator that the decision will vary according to circumstance/judges. It's seems as though they are leaving it to the discretion of judges. Like you said we'll just have to wait & see regarding the depth of change - but it is quite a bit of progress.
I like the sumo analogy - this is how I think it should be as well. But I think there is a reluctance to allow grabbing, pulling & tripping because I think they don't want to veer to much away from knockdown. I think they probably want to see clean striking technique - that said I think pulling, grabbing & tripping would be the way to go. I think they probably also want to distinguish it from other formats as well.
I'm also not a fan of domawashi kaiten geri (the exception being the downwards roll version) - so glad they are sorting out the issues with throwing it.
That rule - countering with kick that puts an opponent down followed by a tsuki (that doesn't need to touch) is pretty confusing given that further on they are saying that if you sweep an opponent & follow with a gedan tsuki that makes contact - it may count as ippon.
I don't think that first part is especially smart - should connect with a gedan tsuki to be awarded waza-ari. I completely missed that before - I was thinking huh when I read Gary's post prior to that lol.
I still like the rules though - think it's a step in the right general direction.
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Post by slaine on May 9, 2016 12:53:26 GMT -5
I have to admit I'm dead set against it as a technique and think a knockout from a good mawashi / ushiro mawashi geri is spectacular enough , I mean there's nothing functional or practical about it whatsoever.
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GJEC
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LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
Posts: 3,218
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Post by GJEC on May 10, 2016 0:55:54 GMT -5
The whole idea of knockdown was brutal simplicity. The original rules were -
No punches, elbows or open hand strikes above the neck.
No headbutts.
No kicks to the groin or front of the knee.
No grabbing for more than three seconds.
To score you knocked them down (clue's in the title) or swept / controlled punched.
Since then, like the syllabus, it's been tinkered with and made more fussy. Let's face it, leaving things to the referees interpretation is fraught with danger as they might be technically inept or biased.
Keep it simple.
Gary
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Post by slaine on May 10, 2016 1:49:05 GMT -5
The whole idea of knockdown was brutal simplicity. The original rules were - No punches, elbows or open hand strikes above the kneck. No headbutts. No kicks to the groin or front of the knee. No grabbing for more than three seconds. To score you knocked them down (clue's in the title) or swept / controlled punched. Since then, like the syllabus, it's been tinkered with and made more fussy. Let's face it, leaving things to the referees interpretation is fraught with danger as they might be technically inept or biased. Keep it simple. Gary Couldn't agree more Gary , " Brutal Simplicity " sums it up perfectly for me and is what originally attracted me to it. |
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Post by MMX on May 10, 2016 11:30:26 GMT -5
The whole idea of knockdown was brutal simplicity. The original rules were - No punches, elbows or open hand strikes above the neck. No headbutts. No kicks to the groin or front of the knee. No grabbing for more than three seconds. To score you knocked them down (clue's in the title) or swept / controlled punched. Since then, like the syllabus, it's been tinkered with and made more fussy. Let's face it, leaving things to the referees interpretation is fraught with danger as they might be technically inept or biased. Keep it simple. Gary Hmm that sounds so familiar. Oh yeah that is pretty much the Sabaki Challenge rules.  |
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