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Post by havamal on Apr 18, 2011 1:37:23 GMT -5
Most of the kata I see in person or on YouTube moves at a deliberate pace: Not at full speed nor at very slow, Tai Chi Chuan like, speed.
Once the steps have been memorized the two most important speeds to me are the full, fight, speed to show practical movements and the very slow-motion speed to test balance.
While I was visiting Taiwan, Republic of China, I was shown some gung-fu "forms" and I showed a Pinan kata. We all did our kata fast, but I realized hardly anyone in my karate dojo, in kata competitions, and on Youtube, the kata seems to be done at a less than full power speed.
What do you think?
Osu
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Post by senshido on Apr 18, 2011 4:17:54 GMT -5
For me. you learn a kata piece by piece, building it together until eventually you have all the moves, once you are happy with this it should be practiced full power, this should include speeding up the relevant parts.
A lot of the kata you see on you tube are instructional and are done at a slower pace throughout
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Post by powerof0ne on Apr 18, 2011 8:21:52 GMT -5
Some are done as instructionals like Senshido said but there is also the WKF, JKA, etc. type of kata that does have a deliberate timing and "way" to perform a kata. They do this so the judges all know what to judge on in tournaments which leaves little to no deviation from how it should be done for them.
I used to think having deliberate timing was "awesome" but after the years common sense crept in and I realize people aren't all built the same and people have different strengths and weaknesses. With that all being said somebody should be able to perform a kata "their way" after some years of training..we're not all robots for cryin' out loud.
However, the other side of the coin is if you go to some "all styles" kata tournaments you'll see some people took far too many liberties with how they perform kata.
Funny thing I must bring up from my personal experience is I noticed a lot of the high ranking karateka in WKF circles performed their kata their way which differed from how we were supposed to do it in tournaments. I was so brainwashed in those days I just thought "wow, they're so good at karate that their kata looks so much different then mine". Well, of course it did, they were injecting their own timing and showing their speed and power where they felt necessary to do so but if I did what they did in a WKF tournament I would have got docked down on points...
Osu!
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Post by meguro on Apr 18, 2011 8:50:31 GMT -5
The applications are so far removed from the moves that it hardly seems to matter what speed you do the kata. For example, certain changes in direction indicate a throw and should be performed without a pause. However, due to misunderstanding or a desire to create dramatic tension people choose to pause or move glacially slow. If the moves in kata have meaning, as I believe, they should follow a certain pattern-like rules of grammar. As it is now, kata more often appears to be performed without any such structure and so resembles gibberish.
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Post by MMX on Apr 18, 2011 11:08:24 GMT -5
The Enshin kata are a bit different. Once you have learned it then you can get faster and faster. I think ideally it is a 10-20 second kata.  |
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Post by gotapex on Apr 19, 2011 22:54:06 GMT -5
IMHO, many of the katas you see on youtube are done slowly. This is the increase their usefulness as an instructional tool. The better ones are done slow first, then at "correct" pace after.
I think that more important than all out speed though, is pace (some moves are supposed to have shorter timing between moves, others longer).
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curlbroscience
Member
Testing the waters. Thanks for the forum MMX!
Posts: 1,517
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Post by curlbroscience on Apr 20, 2011 15:30:36 GMT -5
There are many ways to practice kata as pointed out by many. Fast with all out exertion. Slow with purposeful breathing. Emphasis on certain dynamics, slow and fast, during certain parts of Kata to make it "artistic".
Kata is kata. Practice how you feel and keep up with the count in class.
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Post by MMX on Apr 20, 2011 17:38:00 GMT -5
Osu!
Good point Sotacram!
I do that too. Even with the Jissen kata you can go slow or fast,power or technique and then try and do it all in one go too.
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wullie
Member
I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, there's no way you can prove anything!
Posts: 725
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Post by wullie on Apr 20, 2011 18:28:00 GMT -5
What's Kata???   ;D ;D my weakest subject in Karate, but good luck to you if you want to try and do a fast 'good' version of sanchin or tensho ;D |
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Post by MMX on Apr 20, 2011 21:53:08 GMT -5
Tensho is an interesting one. It almost has its own kinda out of synch timing. It reminds me of something that would be off beat in a 9/16th timing. |
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fatjoe
Member
Just for Kicks
Posts: 98
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Post by fatjoe on Apr 22, 2011 11:17:08 GMT -5
I like the idea of taking a kata and making it mine! (Yours) By this i mean, performing the kata over and over but varying, speed, power, stance position and angles of progression. It is alot of fun to see newer students take taikyoku sono ichi,ni and san and make use in a kumite application........changes the way they look at it for sure and they learn rapid footwork-applcation techniques.
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Post by powerof0ne on Apr 22, 2011 16:52:47 GMT -5
What's Kata??? ;D ;D my weakest subject in Karate, but good luck to you if you want to try and do a fast 'good' version of sanchin or tensho ;D I have seen somebody speed up sanchin but "good" isn't the word I'd use to describe it . Osu! |
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shugyo
Member
Proof Is On The Floor!!
Posts: 76
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Post by shugyo on Dec 28, 2013 23:26:43 GMT -5
Some are done as instructionals like Senshido said but there is also the WKF, JKA, etc. type of kata that does have a deliberate timing and "way" to perform a kata. They do this so the judges all know what to judge on in tournaments which leaves little to no deviation from how it should be done for them. I used to think having deliberate timing was "awesome" but after the years common sense crept in and I realize people aren't all built the same and people have different strengths and weaknesses. With that all being said somebody should be able to perform a kata "their way" after some years of training..we're not all robots for cryin' out loud. However, the other side of the coin is if you go to some "all styles" kata tournaments you'll see some people took far too many liberties with how they perform kata. Funny thing I must bring up from my personal experience is I noticed a lot of the high ranking karateka in WKF circles performed their kata their way which differed from how we were supposed to do it in tournaments. I was so brainwashed in those days I just thought "wow, they're so good at karate that their kata looks so much different then mine". Well, of course it did, they were injecting their own timing and showing their speed and power where they felt necessary to do so but if I did what they did in a WKF tournament I would have got docked down on points... Osu! Solid post!!  |
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blacktiger
Member
Looking to gain "Acceptance"
Posts: 93
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Post by blacktiger on Dec 31, 2013 7:21:31 GMT -5
Strange, as I've gotten "older" in Karate, I've slowed down the performance of the kata for personal practice, looking at the intricate details of each individual move whilst moving on to the next technique/combo.
I still teach it faster to students, but do break down the difficult combos so they get the movements. working hand in hand with application of the kata helps to understnad it too. I find that the traditional kata like the Pinans, Bassai etc one needs to learn the kata first before one can begin to analyse the kata whereas with Ashihara Kata (can't speak for Enshin Kata) the Kata is best learnt with application as part of the learning curve. sometimes some of the techniques lend themselves to being worked throw with an Uke as opposed to singularily on one's own.
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Post by powerof0ne on Jan 7, 2014 21:49:38 GMT -5
Osu! Thank you I have a love/hate relationship with kata since I posted that. My hate comes from the fact that I was forced to learn too many kata. When I last taught, it was at a university with many students that obviously weren't keen on learning kata. I wasted a lot of time having to re-teach kata to them because they obviously weren't practicing outside the class. I don't believe in diluting a style to meet the student but when you have very few to no students retaining the kata you teach them...what's the point of teaching them? What was funny I had this discussion with some of them, and one of the students said the kata is necessary...and he was one of the guilty ones, that forgot much of the kata. I had to explain to him, that to get to shodan, he had to learn many more kata than he's been shown and actually know them LOL! This made him shut up a bit! In my shito ryu days I knew around 50 different kata at one point and I was still a teenager. Part of the reason was my sensei knew he would be closing down the dojo and wanted to show me all the kata he knew before he closed down the dojo. This is primarily where the "hate" part of my love/hate with kata comes from. I probably only know 25-30 kata today, but I'm sure I could quickly remember the 20-25 kata I used to know...but no thanks, I won't bother. Osu! Some are done as instructionals like Senshido said but there is also the WKF, JKA, etc. type of kata that does have a deliberate timing and "way" to perform a kata. They do this so the judges all know what to judge on in tournaments which leaves little to no deviation from how it should be done for them. I used to think having deliberate timing was "awesome" but after the years common sense crept in and I realize people aren't all built the same and people have different strengths and weaknesses. With that all being said somebody should be able to perform a kata "their way" after some years of training..we're not all robots for cryin' out loud. However, the other side of the coin is if you go to some "all styles" kata tournaments you'll see some people took far too many liberties with how they perform kata. Funny thing I must bring up from my personal experience is I noticed a lot of the high ranking karateka in WKF circles performed their kata their way which differed from how we were supposed to do it in tournaments. I was so brainwashed in those days I just thought "wow, they're so good at karate that their kata looks so much different then mine". Well, of course it did, they were injecting their own timing and showing their speed and power where they felt necessary to do so but if I did what they did in a WKF tournament I would have got docked down on points... Osu! Solid post!! |
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;D ;D
