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Post by powerof0ne on Nov 17, 2011 15:26:21 GMT -5
I know of some very senior high ranking Kyokushin instructors in various orgs who try to preach to people under them not to cross train, to only train in kyokushin (I know people in every style that are this way, not just Kyokushin).
I find some serious flaws with this because Kyokushin has roots in shotokan and goju ryu...but also has techniques from other martial arts as well. Kyokushin has also evolved to some degree on its own by fighters finding what works, and doesn't work for them in competition. Kyokushin has also had big name fighters train in kickboxing, Muay Thai, boxing, etc. for K-1 fights (Think Filho, Feitosa, Pettas, and more!).
With all of that being said I will say Kyokushin is probably one of the most cross training friendly karate styles there are compared to some others...but I still know Kyokushin instructors that frown heavily on cross training.
My own take on it is, it's okay to cross train but invest some time on an art at first, before diving into other martial arts. This is a topic that's been hammered on many times before so I'll just drop it at that.
My question is, without disrespecting anybody if I haven't yet, is it hypocritical to tell students not to cross train when we're studying a style that was formed by cross training?
Osu!
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Post by Kurisu on Nov 17, 2011 17:41:07 GMT -5
Cross training is frowned upon at my dojo. Our classes consist of mainly mudansha who are still developing their skills. I think that cross training hampers their development because they are going to get different instruction on mechanics, strategy and distance that might not transfer well over to Kyokushin. However, if a highly profecient yudansha wanted to cross train another budo art or boxing I probably wouldn't have a problem with it.
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Post by powerof0ne on Nov 17, 2011 18:31:44 GMT -5
Cross training is frowned upon at my dojo. Our classes consist of mainly mudansha who are still developing their skills. I think that cross training hampers their development because they are going to get different instruction on mechanics, strategy and distance that might not transfer well over to Kyokushin. However, if a highly profecient yudansha wanted to cross train another budo art or boxing I probably wouldn't have a problem with it. I more or less agree with you, I'd only want a student that's at least a brown belt or higher to cross train. IMO, I already offer kickboxing/MT and knockdown karate to my students which should give them years to work on before branching off. I know at your dojo, you also offer a kickboxing class, too. I remember in the past training with a very green, new student who thought he should also cross train in kung fu which equaled him having a very bad fighting style. I wish I video taped him as an example why people shouldn't cross train early on. Osu! |
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Post by yoshukai on Nov 17, 2011 20:16:14 GMT -5
I think that most knockdown styles came about from some degree of cross training to gleam what works from some systems and disregard what doesn't. So, yes, I do think that instructors who are 100% against cross training are being hypocritical.
I happen to know quite a few Shihans/instructors that think that Yoshukai is the only martial arts style worth a damn. I think that a lot of this has to do with extreme loyalty. They believe so much in what they are being told and there loyalty to one person blinds them from seeing through the flaws in a system.
Every system has flaws and there is no one universal style that has all the answers. If there was a good school around me I would love to be able to cross train in Muay Thai and some ground fighting.
The hypocrits are the ones holding the styles back from a definite future!
Osu!
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Post by powerof0ne on Nov 17, 2011 21:09:34 GMT -5
I think that most knockdown styles came about from some degree of cross training to gleam what works from some systems and disregard what doesn't. So, yes, I do think that instructors who are 100% against cross training are being hypocritical. I happen to know quite a few Shihans/instructors that think that Yoshukai is the only martial arts style worth a damn. I think that a lot of this has to do with extreme loyalty. They believe so much in what they are being told and there loyalty to one person blinds them from seeing through the flaws in a system. Every system has flaws and there is no one universal style that has all the answers. If there was a good school around me I would love to be able to cross train in Muay Thai and some ground fighting. The hypocrits are the ones holding the styles back from a definite future! Osu! See, this is where I see a flaw, too. I even look at guys like Cameron Quinn who can be said to be very loyal to his style and org..but get this, Shihan Quinn also trains in BJJ and I believe is a purple or brown belt now. I also know he has trained with Erik Paulson who is a noted JKD/Shooto/MMA instructor in California. I agree with being loyal and having a base for a number of reasons...but I have no qualms against a student eventually branching off learning more to add to their "cup." I don't hold all the answers for everybody and never will, this is up to the student to seek out that knowledge from other instructors. I started out in karate, loved it, and also branched off to Muay Thai but was still doing karate and am now more focused on the karate. The Muay Thai training for me, just helped my karate even more. No, I'm not inventing my own style but just filling in some gaps that I personally found with karate..but the karate also fills in the gaps that I have found in Muay Thai. This doesn't mean that Karate and Muay Thai is for everybody, but what it does mean is I see nothing wrong with anybody cross training after they get some damn roots....don't start taking up wing chun, BJJ, Muay Thai, san shou, aikido, etc. when you're only 1-3 colored belts into your first style. Osu! |
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Post by yoshukai on Nov 17, 2011 21:15:23 GMT -5
I agree 100% with the idea of getting a solid base first. The ones that get yellow belt in karate, 3 months of Muay Thai, and 1 year in BJJ are creating more gaps than they are filling.
The ones mentioned above view cross training as how much can I cram into my cup... Instead of sticking it out in a few select systems, they try to get a bit of every trend that is out there.
Osu!
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GJEC
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LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
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Post by GJEC on Nov 18, 2011 4:46:35 GMT -5
I don't mind what people do as long as they're ready to work when they get to our dojo.
If they start coming in moaning they've got shin splints from running or they've trashed their legs doing heavy squats etc, I'm not best pleased.
Likewise with other styles. If they go on a course with another instructor, good for them, but if they get injured or sore I'd have to wonder if it's helping.
Gary
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Post by senshido on Nov 18, 2011 5:15:10 GMT -5
I have no problem with it as long as its not detrimental to my class... when someone (and it has happened) tells me I'm doing something wrong because thats not how they were taught elsewhere... I dont like it
(that was someone doing freestyle karate telling me I was wrong!)
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on Nov 18, 2011 5:28:32 GMT -5
LOL
I've found "Show me what you mean" to be very useful in exactly those situations ...
Gary
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monty
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Post by monty on Nov 18, 2011 7:48:22 GMT -5
In the first style we trained in it was discouraged for students to cross-train and forbidden for Instructors(unpaid) to do so.
When we tried Tetsudo we were told that Cross-training was fine but by the time you got to Brown belt you should choose a style/system and stick to it (what they would have actually done about it I don't know, perhaps they follow you on your non-training days)
When we started doing Wado and Enshin I found it too much to keep up both (Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday X 2)
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Post by pandorasvise on Nov 18, 2011 22:06:18 GMT -5
in my dojo, we say that all martial arts is good. Sosai took what he saw as the best from all the styles he trained and added more stuff from his experience to make kyokushin. My dojo has had jujitsu and MMA classes. I just came from another gym to learn judo.
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Post by powerof0ne on Nov 19, 2011 3:53:42 GMT -5
in my dojo, we say that all martial arts is good. Sosai took what he saw as the best from all the styles he trained and added more stuff from his experience to make kyokushin. My dojo has had jujitsu and MMA classes. I just came from another gym to learn judo. Most of the founders of karate styles cross trained to some degree. It was very common for the very old school karate style founders to have trained in some naha, shuri, and tomari te under different instructors that had their own different views of it all. This isn't even counting the hakutsuru/white crane stuff (Gokenki if i remember right), and other Chinese styles that some of them learned (Uechi ryu/pangai noon). It's kind of funny to me when I think how common it was 70-100 years ago to cross train in Karate and then when it became "more Japanese" and "less Okinawan" it was heavily discouraged. I honestly believe that knockdown karate is closer to the way karate was originally done with some openness of cross training and proving the effectiveness of technique by "battle." I don't know when exactly kata changed as it has..but I have an idea why it did. I'm rambling here a bit, but this is sort of related to what I'm talking about. If any of you look at the old pictures of Funakoshi, Miyagi, Mabuni, Motobu, Yabu, Itosu, Matsumura, etc. their stances are much much much higher then how kata is practiced by most of us. Their techniques seemed to focus more on being effective then looking pretty too...with more POWER then looking pretty. The way kata is done today looks totally different then how kata was done by the founders of what is known as karate today. I'm not saying it doesn't take any skill to have good kata in a tournament, it certainly does but I've been questioning the value of it for some years now. Sort of how there was never "point sparring" and it was a result of some of the early Shotokan members that had kendo backgrounds trying to use a kendo point system for karate kumite. Not all changes are good; if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Osu! |
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evergrey
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Get over yourself, mate.
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Post by evergrey on Nov 19, 2011 4:42:12 GMT -5
If Sosai were alive today, he'd be sending fighters to UFC matches, figuring out what works and what doesn't, and adding it to Kyokushin.
Most of the advanced fighters at my dojo also train in BJJ or the like. I plan to, once I hit brown or black belt.
We regularly have events that are open to all styles, where we all learn from one another.
I think it is hypocritical to tell someone to never train in any other style when you are a Kyokushin instructor. That wasn't Sosai's way.
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Post by pandorasvise on Nov 19, 2011 8:07:59 GMT -5
evergrey I was trainnig BJJ as I was taking beginner lessons. BJJ really doesn't translate to kniockdown at all, so there is no crossover Po1, talking katas is a whole other subject, but I do see the value in them. They change becasue our sytle is fluid. When those who are in charge see an advantage in something, they change it. Why I think we have such low stances, is that we don't fight like that, it is practice. Low stances and sanhindachi strengthen the legs and force us to be in control. As we practice kihon and katas, we make our movements big, knowing that we shorten them up when we fight or defend ourselves. the biggest thing that kata does is engages the imagination. You imagine someone attacks you. You defend against them, and counter and then maybe defend yourself from your imaginary attaker's freind. In class we are encouraged to make up our own bunkai for the moves of the katas. The thing about imagination is that it is just as powerful as training with real people. Research Highlight
A study using people shooting basketball free-throws was done to demonstrate the power of the imagination and visualization. Four groups were randomly selected from college students. At the beginning of the study, each group was to shoot a certain number of free throws and see how many were made. Next, each group was given one of the four following scenarios. The first group was the control group. These students were to do nothing different for the period of the study that related to basketball. Members of the second group were to practice shooting foul shots every day for one-half hour each day. The third group was told that each member was to not touch a basketball during the application period but was to simply sit and visualize making free-throws in his or her imagination for one half-hour each day. The fourth group was told to practice shooting for 15 minutes and also to visualize making free-throws for 15 minutes every day.
At the end of the testing period, each group was tested again to see if it had improved from the initial application. The results showed that the group that improved the most was the group that both visualized and practiced shooting the free throws. The group that made the second biggest improvement was the group that only practiced making free-throws in their imagination. This group improved more than the group that practiced shooting foul shots every day. faculty.weber.edu/molpin/healthclasses/1110/bookchapters/imagerychapter.htm |
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on Nov 19, 2011 8:50:02 GMT -5
evergrey I was trainnig BJJ as I was taking beginner lessons. BJJ really doesn't translate to kniockdown at all, so there is no crossover Po1, talking katas is a whole other subject, but I do see the value in them. They change becasue our sytle is fluid. When those who are in charge see an advantage in something, they change it. Why I think we have such low stances, is that we don't fight like that, it is practice. Low stances and sanhindachi strengthen the legs and force us to be in control. As we practice kihon and katas, we make our movements big, knowing that we shorten them up when we fight or defend ourselves. the biggest thing that kata does is engages the imagination. You imagine someone attacks you. You defend against them, and counter and then maybe defend yourself from your imaginary attaker's freind. In class we are encouraged to make up our own bunkai for the moves of the katas. The thing about imagination is that it is just as powerful as training with real people. Research Highlight
A study using people shooting basketball free-throws was done to demonstrate the power of the imagination and visualization. Four groups were randomly selected from college students. At the beginning of the study, each group was to shoot a certain number of free throws and see how many were made. Next, each group was given one of the four following scenarios. The first group was the control group. These students were to do nothing different for the period of the study that related to basketball. Members of the second group were to practice shooting foul shots every day for one-half hour each day. The third group was told that each member was to not touch a basketball during the application period but was to simply sit and visualize making free-throws in his or her imagination for one half-hour each day. The fourth group was told to practice shooting for 15 minutes and also to visualize making free-throws for 15 minutes every day.
At the end of the testing period, each group was tested again to see if it had improved from the initial application. The results showed that the group that improved the most was the group that both visualized and practiced shooting the free throws. The group that made the second biggest improvement was the group that only practiced making free-throws in their imagination. This group improved more than the group that practiced shooting foul shots every day. faculty.weber.edu/molpin/healthclasses/1110/bookchapters/imagerychapter.htmHmmmm I wouldn't bank on it. The thing with the study you quote is that there are few variables. The ball is always the same size, the hoop always the same size etc. If the shots are always taken from the same spot it's always easy to conjure a strong image. Fighting's not like that, nor's kata. The variables - even in combat sport - are limitless. Not only may we face different sizes, shapes and abilities of attacker, but we face different strategies and degrees of arousal. It's a far more complex pictire so getting a realistic mental training effect from something that - let's face it - is pretty stylised and unlike the real thing, may be wishful thinking. If you want to use visualisation I'd suggest imagining strongly your best technique(s) connecting as hard as possible into your opponents unprotected face / ribs / leg etc. That's a much stronger and more focussed image than a complex kata. Gary PS Mutter AVE IT! as you imagine them falling down with a look of shock and awe on their face ...  |
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