"Ura" katas

[evergrey]

OSU,
Does anyone know who introduced "ura" style kata to Kyokushin, and when? Was it a decision on Sosai's part, or someone else's?
And what, in your opinion, is the purpose of the ura katas?
Thanks!

[meguro]

In two words: busy work. If there is a logic behind kata, which I argue there is, doing kata with spinning movement with reverse makes absolutely no sense. It would be like forcing first graders to learn the alphabet by tracing the letters from Z to A, altogether ignoring the lessons about spelling words and constructing sentences.

[MMX]

Would you say it was a way for the top dogs to slow down progress of the kohai?

[meguro]

May 10, 2013 17:38:31 GMT -5 MMX said:

Would you say it was a way for the top dogs to slow down progress of the kohai?

hehe. More like the top dogs were stumped for a lesson plan when their students had memorized all the dance steps. Rather than teach applications, send them back to square one, only with spins before every punch just to screw with them. Honestly, I think the top dogs weren't more kata "literate" than their students. Adding embellishments to the movements, like curlicues to letters, is probably the best they could come up with.

[evergrey]

Haha yeah, I'll be honest, it seems like busy work to me, too! But who came up with it and when? Anybody know?

[shugyo]

If I remember it correctly, the Ura versions of the Kata were developed by Mas Oyama to improve balance and agility.

[evergrey]

Oh yeah? Cool. Well, I suppose that makes sense... but I doubt we'll ever incorporate them here.

[powerof0ne]

My organization does Ura, so I do them. There are always going to be pros and cons but Ura has been in Kyokushin for quite some time. I have yet to find a style where I agree with every technique, what, how, why, and so forth.

As Meguro pointed out, most karateka have long abandoned the purpose of kata, unfortunately and do it more as a requirement for rank promotion....or busy work, as he put it .
Osu!

[noahh]

Osu.

Couple of things I like about Ura both in kata and in application as a self defence.

In kumite you have control of one element namely you. Everything else, the environment, the obstacles, and of course the opponent are all unknown variables. Training enhances your control of that single element (your body), it follows instructions better is more accurate in technique, stance and movement.

Kata is a great tool for developing that body precision/obedience. I personally see Ura as an evolution of that process, it introduces a variable, that yes you control, but is non the less chaotic.

"I see you've got that down, now lets see you do it with the room spinning."

In kumite everything is moving yet you need to maintain focus on a target, and act with precision. The movement of ura isn't in itself particularly applicable to kumite but the confusion it represents is.

Then there are the applications of Ura I like
- From a lapel Grab, repeat Ura twice pulling your opponent through in each case, it's a rare individual who is still standing after a second.
- In kumite ura works nicely as a roll off, turning into your opponent. Initially seems contradictory as you turn your back on them briefly, but I find most fighters loose track of you in the process and you end up behind them.
- Lastly trickier to pull off, Again done from a grab, sagari Ura releasing on the return followed by a kick, the rotation tends to open up the opponents guard. Kick can be body or head.

Some of the dynamic modern kata take advantage of spinning and disorienting an opponent beautifully, Ura doesn't just reside in traditional kata.

Osu.

[GJEC]

I put it under the category of "More trouble to learn than benefits received"

Enshin uses more rotation as part of it's kata, but since they are done in fighting stance with grabbing, applications are built in.

By contrast the only kata I did at Kyokushin honbu in the 80's was Pinan sono Go in Ura. I remember thinking "Did I really travel round the world to learn this?"

Gary

[meguro]

Sept 14, 2014 1:34:50 GMT -5 GJEC said:

By contrast the only kata I did at Kyokushin honbu in the 80's was Pinan sono Go in Ura. I remember thinking "Did I really travel round the world to learn this?"

Gary

It's a bit disappointing, isn't it? On the other hand, at least you left with the knowledge that the training at honbu is pretty much the same as at far flung dojo. They sell a consistent product, which is not a bad thing once you accept it for what it is.

[senshido]

I was taught ura, not as a spin, but a push the leg through then twist, spinning just makes you dizzy.

[noahh]

Sept 16, 2014 3:02:41 GMT -5 senshido said:

I was taught ura, not as a spin, but a push the leg through then twist, spinning just makes you dizzy.

I was taught the same or similar. The foot work is linear, transitioning from zenkutsu dachi, through mesubi dachi, back into zenkutsu on the other side. Sagari similarly. Removes some of the dizziness, and your dependence on the training surface to stop the rotation. I find it provides an added dimension to the kata as per my earlier post.

Osu

[GJEC]

I find rotational moves have more relevance if you're pulling someone off balance and either kneeing them in the face or dropping them to the floor.

Some of the ura turns linked in to traditional kata just make it harder without any obvious benefit.

Challenging yourself has in many cases become more important than making yourself more efficient. Not convinced that's a good thing.

Gary

[senshido]

Sept 16, 2014 10:54:41 GMT -5 GJEC said:

I find rotational moves have more relevance if you're pulling someone off balance and either kneeing them in the face or dropping them to the floor.

Some of the ura turns linked in to traditional kata just make it harder without any obvious benefit.

Challenging yourself has in many cases become more important than making yourself more efficient. Not convinced that's a good thing.

Gary

I should have said... I only ever do the Taikyoku's not the pinans... last time I did the pinans was for my nidan grading