tmd
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Think Fast Hit hard
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Post by tmd on Jul 30, 2013 4:06:17 GMT -5
Is over training just a consequence of poor dietary input over activity or is it a real over loading of the system?
I ask as it gets mentioned a lot but if you look at a manual working environment such as coal mining you have (had) guys manually working 10-12 hour days with limited rest or nutrition, there life expectancy is shortened due to the environmental conditions but is this proof that over training is just a western myth that someone with a statuary job/ life suddenly working out a lot is doing more than their body can ever cope with or ant they just doing too much too quickly?
On the Tour de France the guys still cycle for up to 3 hours on rest days to stop them seizing up! That's why they consume massive quantities of calories I've never heard anyone claim that someone didn't win the Tour through over training during preparation!
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GJEC
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LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
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Post by GJEC on Jul 30, 2013 5:35:49 GMT -5
Difficult one. Other contact sports - like rugby - have seasons and a fairly short career path. Only in MA do people expect to train like teenagers all year round when they're well past their sell by date. With the benefit of hindsight I'd have trained hard but rested more, maybe having a complete break for a month every summer.
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Post by Ros on Jul 30, 2013 8:29:22 GMT -5
This is a really complicated subject. I think it's a bit tricky to try and compare manual labour with optional training - several studies show that manual labourers have a more rapid deterioration of health and lower life expectancy than professional workers but there are so many confounding factors that it's very difficult to draw any conclusions. There is certainly a condition among athletes called overtraining syndrome where the body is unable to cope with fatigue accumulated from intense, daily training, where appropriate rest periods are not taken. The body shows fatigue, decreased performance despite training, repeated infections and changes in neuroendocrine factors. Although there are some psychological changes, there are some definite physiological changes happening, such as changes in maximal heart rate, blood lactate levels and depression of skeletal muscle glycogen capacity. There are also questions regarding the suppression of the immune system during and after high-intensity periods of training that probably lead to the repeated infections (particularly respiratory tract infections). As Gary says, most athletes have a short shelf-life - that's for a reason: you can't put your body through such a pounding indefinitely. For us non-elite athletes, making sure of a good diet, a good night's sleep and adequate rest periods is important. I would say that the old adage 'everything in moderation' probably applies to training as well as many other things in life.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2013 10:20:12 GMT -5
"For us non-elite athletes, making sure of a good diet, a good night's sleep and adequate rest periods is important. I would say that the old adage 'everything in moderation' probably applies to training as well as many other things in life. " I think you are right about that. I figure that unless there is a specified goal like a tournament or test, there is no reason to destroy oneself by overtraining. I can see if there is some important event coming up, but other than that training should supplement health, not diminish it.
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Post by MMX on Jul 30, 2013 10:46:46 GMT -5
Depending on what you are doing but yes it is possible. There are many weightlifters that experience this. They push their system too hard too soon and their CNS shuts down on them.
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dtom
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Post by dtom on Jul 30, 2013 11:31:06 GMT -5
I read this article after the last time the UFC heavyweight champ's belt changed hands. It's got some links in it that contain further information on the condition and some other things, I had to read them as I was not aware of the condition Dos Santos developed before reading the article. I hope it helps answer any questions. Junior Dos Santos - Rhabdomyolysis
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tmd
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Post by tmd on Jul 30, 2013 11:43:58 GMT -5
I understand that you can over train, especially at a pro level - listening to some of the athletes preparing for 2012 they were training 30-40 hours a week and did not consider this excessive as I mentioned the Tour guys do this very very regularly, and for sure I understand that generally manual workers have a shorter career generally - hence a lot of services men retiring earlier than the general populous but I have heard people talking about being over trained, fatigued etc after doing what I would consider quite a normal and functional amount of training, not moderate, but not excessive.... I see that there are different body types and shapes and metabolisms and personalities and for me I hear a lot about how HIT is everything and short burst this/ sprint that but for me this is focused only on a particular type of person and is being over used and over subscribed to the masses as a cure all and leading to less activity in some that need more, and when it doesn't work the excuse is "we'll it's not the training but your diet!" Well then what the hell was the training for?! Balance, it's all balance but I think we all have different tipping points and what is bugging me is that for many the latest fad is less is more; eat less, train less and you'll be... more? - sure might work for some but is that body shape, the type of fitness, the sort of diet what you want live on? One of the things I love about Martial Arts, especially full contact ones is that so much of what we do is mental that the physical is secondary so you can prepare for a tournament, or life in a way that suits you and as long as you feel like you can take on the world it is (almost) irrelevant if what got you there was daily short bursts of sprints and burpees, hours in the gym, hours in the dojo, hours of bag work, hours of sparing or all of them! what maters is that you listened to your body, you worked to your maximum potential and you ate well, and I know I don't do the listening or eating one's well before anyone mentions it, this is very much a do as I say not do kinda post but even I'm getting better..... it's probably just a little late!
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on Jul 30, 2013 12:42:49 GMT -5
We're all different so maybe the best (self)question before training is "How do I feel?" If the answer is "Great!" have a hard session. Sweat buckets, build spirit. If it's "OK" have a steady one. Skill improvement but keep a bit left in the tank. If it's "RaF" take the day off. Ditch the guilt about missing the odd session and as a general rule aim to finish training feeling good, not exhausted. You'll still reap the benefits in the short term and be able to keep active long term. Win Win. Gary
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Post by MMX on Jul 31, 2013 10:54:15 GMT -5
I agree with Gary 100%. That is how I have been training and getting stronger in the process.
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Post by Ros on Aug 1, 2013 2:07:15 GMT -5
...but I have heard people talking about being over trained, fatigued etc after doing what I would consider quite a normal and functional amount of training, not moderate, but not excessive.... When you say 'what I would consider a normal amount of training...' would you have considered it a normal amount of training when you first started, for example? As Gary says, everyone is different with different (adapting) thresholds. I think it's also important to remember that fatigue is not just physical, it's mental and emotional, too. Funnily enough, I got this Thomas Kurz article pinged into my inbox this morning, which is an interesting read: www.stadion.com/weekly-schedule-of-workouts/
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tmd
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Post by tmd on Aug 1, 2013 2:50:11 GMT -5
...but I have heard people talking about being over trained, fatigued etc after doing what I would consider quite a normal and functional amount of training, not moderate, but not excessive.... When you say 'what I would consider a normal amount of training...' would you have considered it a normal amount of training when you first started, for example? As Gary says, everyone is different with different (adapting) thresholds. I think it's also important to remember that fatigue is not just physical, it's mental and emotional, too. Funnily enough, I got this Thomas Kurz article pinged into my inbox this morning, which is an interesting read: www.stadion.com/weekly-schedule-of-workouts/I'll give it a read later, cheers Ros. To answer you question about the same, I used to do 3 nights of weights, 2 of karate 2 days of Jujitsu totalling around 10 hours and have a very physical job running all over building sites from 8-5 every week day - I wanted to get bigger at the time and the woman where I brought my Protein shakes from just said no chance unless I reduced my training load (funny that she never offered just to sell me more product). I would still say that for the average martial artist 10-15 hours a week is manageable but very dependent on your goal, physiology and lifestyle, 20 hours is probably the sort of levels the guys doing world championships are aiming for but requires adequate fuelling.... I have no doubt there could be some people doing 4-6 hours a week and feeling fantastic, having a diet to suit and the HIT stuff etc working great for them, I am not denying that, just saying that there are some that it doesn't work for either from a physical or mental pov. Maybe I'll change my mind once I've read the article and maybe it's just my make up and that I'm weird - I like to be busy and I only seem to burn calories during extended training periods - I do and love Tabata for my fight fitness but it never makes a dent on my weight so it could just be me, I know in the study I saw about HIT they did say that there are some body times it specifically does not work for. My concern is as it is the NEW THING everyone who heads to the gym and says I want to loose weight is told well stay away from Jogging for an hour, or jumping on the bike for an hour that doesn't work (anymore?) put on a HIT program and when it fails the expectation is they either need to diet more or that they aren't working hard enough rather than that the program does not suit them.
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monty
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Post by monty on Aug 1, 2013 6:25:54 GMT -5
I've always worried about you TMD, but now I have proof that you are insane
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tmd
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Think Fast Hit hard
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Post by tmd on Aug 1, 2013 7:01:07 GMT -5
I've always worried about you TMD, but now I have proof that you are insane Especially with Crucifix or med ball burpees
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Post by Ros on Aug 2, 2013 2:34:12 GMT -5
TMD, if you love Tabata, you are doing them wrong! You know, it sounds to me as if you are not happy with your training unless you are pushing yourself to the max all the time. Now, I appreciate that this is appropriate to do sometimes, but it's not always the case that more training is better, or harder training is better or more and harder training is better! Here's a loaded question just out of interest, do you think your recent injuries may have been as a result of overtraining? I really think that for the average martial artist, 10-15 hours a week, plus a 40 hour a week job, plus family and other commitments is way, way too much. As for weight loss (which is mainly down to what you eat, the majority of the calories you eat are utilised by the body just existing - any additional movement is a bonus, of course) I do 30-40 mins, 6 days a week of aerobic training, circuits or intervals and I'm happily losing weight every week. If I started consuming more calories, I wouldn't be!
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tmd
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Post by tmd on Aug 2, 2013 5:05:30 GMT -5
TMD, if you love Tabata, you are doing them wrong! You know, it sounds to me as if you are not happy with your training unless you are pushing yourself to the max all the time. Now, I appreciate that this is appropriate to do sometimes, but it's not always the case that more training is better, or harder training is better or more and harder training is better! Here's a loaded question just out of interest, do you think your recent injuries may have been as a result of overtraining? I really think that for the average martial artist, 10-15 hours a week, plus a 40 hour a week job, plus family and other commitments is way, way too much. As for weight loss (which is mainly down to what you eat, the majority of the calories you eat are utilised by the body just existing - any additional movement is a bonus, of course) I do 30-40 mins, 6 days a week of aerobic training, circuits or intervals and I'm happily losing weight every week. If I started consuming more calories, I wouldn't be! I'm glad what works for you works for you my whole point is that doesn't mean it is a cure all and I'm sure you'll agree that we are all different... ("I'm not" said a small voice from the back It's fine I Don't consider it loaded at all and I'd agree that some of my injuries are as a result of me training past the limits of my 44 year old body for a sustained amount of time, no doubt. But most are the result of either sparing injuries, broken stuff that I didn't give adequate time to heal that have become inflamed and more of a long term problem than they would have with adequate rest and recovery, nothing to do with the number of hours of training.... directly I have a weak frame & poorly digestive system which I think adds time to my recovery that I haven't given credit for in the past, but I am learning. I was 25kG's heaver before I started training properly again so more likely to suffer an early death, for sure I was less likely to have a cattled elbow, broken hands etc for but and my diet wasn't that bad or different form today except that I drank beer and ate bread so I've shaved a few calories there but nothing major - it is the training that saved me not the change in diet alone..... are you saying this has lead to a psychosomatic link between my training and not wanting to return to the blob that I was.... I think this thread is to focused on me - maybe because Over training is not a myth, maybe it is just me but I come back to the miners, the labourers etc, etc who work 40-60 hours a week and some of which then head for the gym, the dojo etc or the Soldiers or the Athletes who train for 30 hours a week plus do have other commitments. The diet thing is an interesting point to discuss - I have tried cutting back but all I feel is weak and starved and unable to train at all so I eat more, feel better and train : this is why I say train in balance to your diet. If the diet you live on and enjoy is 3,000 calories a day and your static consumption should be 2,500 (using the average) I agree one thing you could do is cut out 500 calories of your favourite stuff or you could train off the 500 calories. If the type of training you enjoy means you can achieve this with your digestive system, your matabolisim in half an hour great you only need train 3.5 hours a week - if you have a more sluggish system or prefer a different type of exersize maybe you need to train for 7 hours.... if you extrapolate that to wanting to cut 500 calories a day that's either 7 hours a week or 14 hours a week and my whole point is there in that example; just because some like HIT programs and they work for them so 7 hours is both efficient and sufficient does not mean that it works for everyone and that those choosing to do or finding that a 14 hours program works for them are not by default wrong. Liked and printed off that article, many thanks for sharing, will absorb it better off in print but I think it kinda helps my case as what it talks about is how those doing Explosive, Power exersizes need larger breaks than those doing more of a muscular endurance type of training I agree with this 100% and I never suggested you could be in the gym everyday doing heavy compound lifts for every body part every day 0- I understand the physiology of muscle building and strengthening, however trying to run a marathon everyday for 50 days has been done (all be it badly by Eddie Izard but in reality by an actual sport person it can be done) balance, balance, balance that's all that's needed.
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