GJEC
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LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
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Post by GJEC on Mar 26, 2014 16:00:30 GMT -5
I rather rashly put my email address in the back of my book and said "all comments welcome". Since then I've had a dedicated crew of idiots trying to slag off knockdown and advance their own agenda as to the 'best' way to prepare. So what is? Science uses "testing of theories against evidence" and since street combat is dangerous and illegal I maintain the mat is our laboratory. We set up an experiment under controlled conditions and test the results. We then revise our theories, alter our training and re test. Of course it's not a true test unless we face the same opponents who have not similarly improved, but it's a damn sight better than belief without evidence. The bunkai boys (and girls) have no lab. Anything that requires a preset attack and defence, especially if it requires the attacker to freeze while he is taken apart is not a theory / evaluate / improve / retest. It's a belief. All you need is a sacred scroll, book or master that cannot be questioned and it's a religion, not a science. But I stay polite and offer to send people entry forms so they can test their training under controlled conditions. So far all have declined. Gary
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Proof
Mar 26, 2014 16:10:44 GMT -5
Post by MMX on Mar 26, 2014 16:10:44 GMT -5
Yes. It pretty much all falls apart under stress unless you are trained for it. Much like the reason the Glock has no safety. Fine motor goes to crap under stress. That is why you have to chamber a round.
You get on the mat. Chamber your round(kick?) and then test your mettle.
Osu!
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Proof
Mar 26, 2014 17:27:03 GMT -5
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Post by meguro on Mar 26, 2014 17:27:03 GMT -5
Doesn't MMA, Combat Sambo, and the like count as labs for testing kata applications. If it works in these full speed settings, it'll work on the street.
I think kata is often misunderstood as a blow by blow script, rather than an illustration of principles. The so called fighting kata introduce fighting combinations to satisfy a desire to see the blow by blow scenario that traditional kata seem to depict poorly. Also, many of the applications are interpreted as strikes, and poor one too. Why anyone would want to poke their fingers at an attacker instead of mashing them in the face with a book end is beyond me.
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Post by MMX on Mar 26, 2014 18:12:39 GMT -5
Even with the fighting Kata I think that it is just assembled in a more tangible way. The lessons from the fighting kata are just as deep if you start to think of more scenarios. Now to test it is the key!
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on Mar 27, 2014 1:23:48 GMT -5
The last bunkai boy I heard from posted a video of himself fighting and to be honest I wondered where all his years of training had gone when he needed them.
It's funny that. I'm all for challenging ourselves to perfect skills but if those skills evaporate with an opponent in controlled conditions I somehow doubt they will reappear in uncontrolled conditions.
There are some bunkai exponents that have made the skills their own and are extremely proficient. Iain Abernethy being the classic example and I am sure there are many others - Meguro included.
The type I am talking about here are the type who might strut around in Tap-Out gear, but somehow forget to train diligently and compete, as if simply wearing the T shirt or knowing some bunkai drills will make all the difference ...
Gary
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Mar 27, 2014 2:30:57 GMT -5
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Post by meguro on Mar 27, 2014 2:30:57 GMT -5
Kind of you to say , Gary, but I'd probably fold up like a wet newspaper. . I understand your perspective, in fact I think we see things the same way, conservatively; that is to rely on what you know that works. In contrast, there was a big wig Soke, quoted by none other than Jesse something or other, as recommending that all kata arm movements should be done with whip like speed, even/especially if you do not know what the arm movements signify. I don't know whether to laugh or cry. How can you practice and test an application you know nothing about? This is what gives kata, and karate a bad reputation. The crystallization of ignorance, certified and promoted from on high. No thanks.
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on Mar 27, 2014 3:10:09 GMT -5
I doubt you'd fold up We both prefer the "Let's see if I can stop someone with this when they're trying their best to hurt me" route. Gary
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Mar 28, 2014 2:44:28 GMT -5
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Post by meguro on Mar 28, 2014 2:44:28 GMT -5
Yesterday, I walked into two shops which specialized in boxing and kick boxing gear: pads; focus mitts; kb's. I asked the proprietors if they had any karate dogi. One apologized politely. The other snorted, and informed me, as if I wasn't aware, that karate is not a sport. Well, some karate, it is true. My language ability is not up to educating him, but I wasn't in the mood either. I've still got a lot to learn.
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shugyo
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Proof Is On The Floor!!
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Apr 27, 2014 9:24:29 GMT -5
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Post by shugyo on Apr 27, 2014 9:24:29 GMT -5
I'm of the camp that says Bunkai is only effective IF it's tested against an unrestrictive partner. A partner that will do everything and anything to stop said Bunkai from succeeding. Resistive training; that's how I was taught, and that's how I teach. Sure, it's ok to comply during Bunkai, but that's only when one is learning or fine-tuning. Hard to learn Bunkai unless it's taken apart PAINSTAKINGLY SLOWLY in order to catch all of its intricacies. Having said that, what works for one might not work for another. However, that leads to making excuses, and that's not Bunkai. Test it...prove it through resistive training. Don't kill your partner, but don't let your partner just stand there while you have your so-called way. Imho!!
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on Apr 27, 2014 12:31:07 GMT -5
I'm of the camp that says Bunkai is only effective IF it's tested against an unrestrictive partner. A partner that will do everything and anything to stop said Bunkai from succeeding. Resistive training; that's how I was taught, and that's how I teach. Sure, it's ok to comply during Bunkai, but that's only when one is learning or fine-tuning. Hard to learn Bunkai unless it's taken apart PAINSTAKINGLY SLOWLY in order to catch all of its intricacies. Having said that, what works for one might not work for another. However, that leads to making excuses, and that's not Bunkai. Test it...prove it through resistive training. Don't kill your partner, but don't let your partner just stand there while you have your so-called way. Imho!! My cynicism started after spending a day on a course being 'taken apart' by a well known instructor who was slagging off tournaments etc all day. This was in the time when the whole bunkai thing was fairly new. At the end I asked him to spar using the skills he had demonstrated and he flatley refused. I was steaming by then as he'd had his fun cranking on the wrist locks etc and dishing out pain after my pre-set attacks. Maybe he was too deadly for me? Or maybe he knew I was going to pay him back with interest? (My money's on the latter) Gary
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Post by meguro on Apr 28, 2014 4:34:06 GMT -5
I am learning some wrist twisting and other applications that require fine motor control. . .but, it is with the firm realization that they will not usually work in the scenario often used by instructors. For example, your attacker throws a punch and you are supposed to block, grab the wrist and twist it. I know I will not manage that in a stressful situation. So what is the point???
I believe a more likely scenario is one you often recommend, use one hand to fix the target, other hand to smash. However, if you and your attacker have both got a handful of hair or lapel, somebody is one punch away from getting knocked out. When both parties are grabbing is the time when you can apply leverage to joints, risk a takedown, etc.
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GJEC
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LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
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Post by GJEC on Apr 28, 2014 14:16:27 GMT -5
I think you just highlighted my main doubts about the whole bunkai thing.
It all works just brilliant if you have 1) A willing victim and 2) Foreknowledge of the incoming attack.
Bunkai experts often then explain that this is "Not for play fighting or tournaments", the inference being that it's too dangerous / effective and only for life and death stuff.
Hmmm. But in life and death stuff neither of the two conditions above exist. The attacker is only willing to give, not receive, and you haven't got a clue what he and/or his mates might do. It might be dark, raining, uneven, with your family etc etc.
In such cases the simpler stuff is, the less likely we are to mess up. As I've said before, some might be good enough to do the complex in those situations, but I know I wouldn't. I'd be relying on getting hard blows in on target asap.
Gary
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Post by meguro on Apr 29, 2014 10:28:01 GMT -5
I think applications got a bum rap from the instructors who touted bunkai that were clueless about combat. I mean, these are the guys telling you karate is for character development on the one hand and killing/maiming on the other. Talk about a conflict of interest. . Look at any practical instruction in firearms, driving, flying, even cooking. No woo. Karate, fair bit of woo. For me, it is learning about what the body can and cannot do. It is practical anatomy. If you can get close enough, you can bend things in painful, damaging ways. This you cannot do when trading punches, and frankly I could be outclassed by any puncher. If my aim is to win no matter what, I need other tools in my kit.
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curlbroscience
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Testing the waters. Thanks for the forum MMX!
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Apr 29, 2014 11:09:27 GMT -5
Post by curlbroscience on Apr 29, 2014 11:09:27 GMT -5
Watching the UFC LHW championship this weekend, there was a lot of wrist control and clinching on the fence ending in elbows and lots of work inside. I don't like JJ but it was beautiful to watch him work in there. There were times when it looked like he was locking the arm at the elbow to execute something like this youtu.be/Q_718dOW09k?t=1m50s @2:01 which seems to be a huge danger in tight areas like Meguro mentioned but not easy to do from a fist punch away. Lots of Naihanchi Shodan enthusiast site this bunkai as a good example for the probe hand, elbow combination for inside clinching.
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Apr 29, 2014 17:03:23 GMT -5
Post by meguro on Apr 29, 2014 17:03:23 GMT -5
Watching the UFC LHW championship this weekend, there was a lot of wrist control and clinching on the fence ending in elbows and lots of work inside. I don't like JJ but it was beautiful to watch him work in there. There were times when it looked like he was locking the arm at the elbow to execute something like this youtu.be/Q_718dOW09k?t=1m50s @2:01 which seems to be a huge danger in tight areas like Meguro mentioned but not easy to do from a fist punch away. Lots of Naihanchi Shodan enthusiast site this bunkai as a good example for the probe hand, elbow combination for inside clinching. You will find that the over hooks and under hooks in that match are represented in our kata, think especially about Pinan sono san, especially the whizzer takedown/arm bar. Usually, the move is interpreted as a block and back fist, which I 've always thought stupid. That would be the kind of bunkai liable to get you a punch in the face for your trouble.
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