Why cage / ring sports don't work in knockdown.

[GJEC]

To balance the debate I thought I'd ask why thai boxers and mma fighters don't do well in knockdown?

Obviously the rules don't favour them and they'd have to change their fighting style. EXACTLY the same thing that confronts knockdown fighters changing codes.

So let's not put ourselves down by debating what 'works' in a different sport. Let's just work hard and get strong at what WE do. This is 'knockdownfighters.com'

Gary

[Tay]

Some of them have done well in Knockdown for example Cung Le (Sanshou and MMA fighter) winning the Shidokan US Open in 1998 and Mongkong Kaleck (Muay Thai fighter) winning the WKO Knockdown World Championship in 2010 as a Middleweight.

You don't see many even trying and I believe the reason is financial. Why would they "waste" time and risk injury training and fighting in a ruleset that will bring them no financial reward, when they can make enough money for a living from Muay Thai / Kickboxing / MMA?

[slaine]

Feb 23, 2015 8:56:46 GMT -5 Tay said:

You don't see many even trying and I believe the reason is financial. Why would they "waste" time and risk injury training and fighting in a ruleset that will bring them no financial reward, when they can make enough money for a living from Muay Thai / Kickboxing / MMA?

Yes exactly , there is no incentive to try '' our '' ruleset , to train for and risk injury for the possibility of a trophy at the end of it all wouldn't do it for most .

[GJEC]

The top dogs in any discipline have put in the work and one would assume that if a top MMA fighter had wondered into a knockdown dojo as a novice - or vice versa - they would have still excelled.

Gary

[MMX]

True about the money. No ONE gets into Knockdown for the Money. We do it because we love it. The ones that compete do it to test their spirit.

[gimptron]

Feb 23, 2015 10:08:04 GMT -5 slaine said:

Feb 23, 2015 8:56:46 GMT -5 Tay said:

You don't see many even trying and I believe the reason is financial. Why would they "waste" time and risk injury training and fighting in a ruleset that will bring them no financial reward, when they can make enough money for a living from Muay Thai / Kickboxing / MMA?

Yes exactly , there is no incentive to try '' our '' ruleset , to train for and risk injury for the possibility of a trophy at the end of it all wouldn't do it for most .

The "knock" (LOL!)I hear from other people who either do Muay Thai or MMA is face punching. I mean you can kick and knee to the head, what more do you want. lol!!!

[powerof0ne]

A bit part of it is because of a different pace. A kickboxing or Muay Thai fight often is fought more defensive and slower because you typically have more time with an opponent. Knockdown is more of a sprint because you have less time. The posturing and defensive guard are usually held much higher for a kickboxing or Muay Thai stylist which also does affect how quick certain strikes will be done (quicker for face punches, not as much for body strikes).

Now, the biggest issue a kickboxer or Muay Thai stylist faces is preparing properly for knockdown. I have helped a few in my youth but they didn't take the knockdown kumite rules serious. Most others I have known that tried made the same mistake AND they didn't spar with anybody that has excelled in knockdown tournaments. I'm also leaving MMA out for now because I haven't personally seen too many 'real' MMA fighters try knockdown tournaments.

Now, those that have done well in knockdown that primarily have a kickboxing or Muay Thai background have almost always if not always spent time training with knockdown karate stylists with experience fighting in knockdown tournaments.

One thing I will say is every time I've seen a kickboxer or Muay Thai fighter that has had some fights and is a real kickboxer or Muay Thai stylist, they may not do well but they usually go the distance and if you asked them, are far less injured than they're used to be after a kickboxing or Muay Thai fight in the ring (again, those that aren't posers who actually have some real experience). I'm not putting down knockdown, there is a reason behind this too...it's the same for boxing. This is because if you go the distance in boxing, kickboxing, or Muay Thai and win you will have usually taken a lot of blunt force trauma over and over and over. Knockdown tournaments are shorter per match (yes, you can get knocked out, lose teeth, and all of that still) which usually means you're not taking 15+ minutes of damage over and over and over all at once (usually).

Something I've noticed in the last decade, possibly due to MMA being popular and less people being aware of knockdown karate? Is that I have seen a lot of posers enter knockdown tournaments saying they're "MMA," "kickboxing," Muay Thai, and so forth but in reality have never done any fights in MMA, kickboxing, Muay Thai, etc. Their "instructors" also don't have experience and are youtube taught for the most part. I guess they assume going to a knockdown karate tournament will be an easy way to "warm up" to prepare to do fights? I have no idea, it's pathetic to me.

Sorry for the rambling.
Osu!

[Tay]

Jul 18, 2015 12:32:38 GMT -5 powerof0ne said:

yes, you can lose teeth and all of that still

you can buy a mouth guard and save yourself from expensive dentist bills these days

[MMX]

If they pop you hard enough the mouth guard will only help to hold the teeth there till you get to the dentist.

[azam]

I think the distancing is what is difficult for many to adjust to. The karate style I trained in prior to Kyokushin was similar but the sparring was freestyle - a bit like kudo. When I joined Tokei a while back - the biggest issue I had apart from my poor fitness after recovering from injury - was that the distancing was extremely hard to adjust to.

I often found my distance was much further out than my sempais which dramatically reduced the volume/pace of the sparring compared to others and my hands were a lot higher up because I was originally taught to make sure my hands were high enough to parry punches/counter - which I felt was a huge detriment sparring wise as I ended up on the back foot rather than standing my ground.


I love knockdown karate - especially 70's, 80's, 90's knockdown karate. I mean my biggest martial arts influence is Hajime Kazumi but I think distancing creates the biggest problem for knockdown fighters who transition to other sports & vice versa.

I've watched quite a few fights of top ranking knockdown fighters who despite their martial arts experience struggle to put punch/kick combos together and resort to pot shots - either exclusively kicks or punches, have considerable timing issues, lower their hands when moving into range etc - all caused by distancing issues. The same issues are often encountered by guys with experience in other styles that get into knockdown.

I feel though that distancing is the most integral part of martial arts as it influences everything you apply.


I don't think the primary reason for fighters in other styles is just money. I mean many fighters often compete in amateur events where there is no financial rewards of any kind. I think you have to have a genuine like for the art of fighting whatever the sport - financial reward only becomes an issue when you make a career out of it. But even then the biggest motivator for them is not money otherwise they'd be doing boxing or any other career that provides huge financial incentives. I think for many it is a love of a particular sport - a good comparison would be why don't we see many professional sprinters become professional long distance/marathon runners?

I think another issue is that many want to stick to what they perceive as realistic. Many don't want to compete in a sport or only compete for 'x' amount of time so the I think that plays a part.