Sport?

[GJEC]

I'm done with MMA

I'm no softy and in my competition days I was a predator that loved knocking people down.

But I don't agree with striking a downed opponent, lying there with his arms down unable to defend himself.

Gary

[Tay]

You would have hated it even more back in the pride / vale tudo days where you could soccer kick and knee downed opponents in the head. You could also jump on their head while they were on their backs.



But I'm with you completely though. I would never consider competing in MMA because of all the ground and pound and how much damage you can take before the fight is stopped.

[MMX]

I have been "done" with MMA for a while. I agree with your point Gary but also it is so boring to watch people get in a grapple battle. I watch Glory Kickboxing or Boxing for my sport fix outside of the annual Sabaki challenge and whatever Knockdown videos I find on youtube.

[GJEC]

We can't 'sell' martial arts as useful for life outside the dojo unless we inculcate qualities such as respect and mercy.

A gentleman should have impeccable manners and steely determination. Competitors should as well.

Gary

[azam]

It's unfortunate but it does happen. Which fight are you referring to in particular though? It sounds as though you saw a specific fight & had enough.

I think everyone should remember that this is entertainment - these competitor's livelihoods are based on the outcome of these fights. Both competitors are grown ass men/women and know the rules of the engagement as well as the consequences of competing- so do spectators (for the most part). If your livelihood depends on the result you will make sure that your opponent is out. This is the evil that comes with making martial arts into professional entertainment.

Usually fights are stopped when an opponent has been downed and is unable to defend himself/herself. There are instances where they take more abuse before the fight is stopped and there are instances where fighters that look to be downed manage to turn it around & win. This is why refs give fighters a chance to turn it around - after all it's their means of making an income & livelihood.

I don't understand how you could prefer getting an 8 or 10 count in boxing/kickboxing than to what you get in MMA.

At least in MMA - once your down - if your out - your out. The long term damage you get from kickboxing/boxing by allowing a downed opponent who almost always is concussed back up to his feet - to take further punishment is much more disastrous to long term health than what you get in MMA. Especially because those combat sports involve striking only.

I'd rather be ground & pounded out than be given an 8 or 10 count after being most probably concussed and getting back up. At least my brain is saved from further damage.

The argument can also be said that kickboxing causes much more blunt brain trauma than MMA. I didn't appreciate grappling as much before but now that I've started actually doing it - I have a new appreciation for it. But I prefer MMA now - because of the ranges of fighting it involves & the types of martial arts: striking, grappling & submissions.

I think it would open many knockdown karatekas eyes by sparring freestyle with someone who is a grappler. First time I did I was astonished at how easy they nullified my kyokushin training by taking me to ground. At the end of the day we train martial arts not just because of lifestyle & the tangible and intangible benefits it gives us both physically, mentally and in our character but as a legitimate fighting system too.

We don't have to like MMA as entertainment or a sport but we do have to appreciate the fact that when we include grappling or submissions to the way we fight - it changes everything.

I don't think there is such a thing as respect & mercy inside professional combat sports - it's the sport of causing pain & bodily harm to someone else to win. The whole point of it is to derive entertainment from it. You can argue about semantics but it's the same whether you watch boxing, kickboxing, MMA or anything else. There are instances of respect, mercy & the tangibles of MMA - but they are few & far in between:



That is one good thing about knockdown tournaments - the rules are based around respect. This is because it is not a professional entertainment combat sports where athletes derive an income or money from winning. Whenever money & fighting are involved with one another - money is always primary to fighting. People like watching other people getting hurt - whether that is being soccer kicked in the head or ground & pounded out etc.


That's why I personally do not agree with professional combat sports - I think it muddies the spirit of what martial arts is meant to be and why I'd never compete professionally. I think though that MMA is a lot better for your health than most combat sports out there like boxing or kickboxing. Kudo I feel is a good go between - between the spirit of knockdown competition with MMA.

[senshido]

I'm with you Gary... I haven't watched MMA for 5 or 6 years now... all the hype crap before the events and during put me right off and I totally agree with not striking an "out" opponent, totally barbaric.

[GJEC]

I'm not trying to talk anyone round or prove anyone wrong, just stating my views.

I respect anyone who gets in there, but refuse to watch it, pay for it or dignify it in any way.

Gary

[meguro]

Maybe in youth we are blinded by our own vitality, but after a few years and as injuries accumulate and recovery takes longer the contradiction of training to protect or build-up one's self, while at the same time testing to the breaking point becomes harder to ignore. What is getting harder for me to watch is not necessarily the ground and pound, although that is pretty brutal, it's the knockout itself, which can happen in knockdown karate as we know. The moment when the fighter drops like a puppet whose strings have been cut - that's what gets to me now. The after knockout beating is like the desecration of a corpse, but the knockout is the first insult.

[Tay]

Dec 16, 2015 7:08:37 GMT -5 meguro said:

The moment when the fighter drops like a puppet whose strings have been cut - that's what gets to me now. The after knockout beating is like the desecration of a corpse, but the knockout is the first insult.

That's a good point. What I struggle the most with is when a fighter who gets knocked out for a few seconds or at the end of a round is let to continue fighting while in a zombie state, sometimes suffering from several knock outs in the same fight while still being allowed to continue.
Suffering from a concussion is bad enough, but several concussions in the same fight can't be good for the long term mental health.

[Tay]

Dec 15, 2015 16:33:28 GMT -5 azam said:

We don't have to like MMA as entertainment or a sport but we do have to appreciate the fact that when we include grappling or submissions to the way we fight - it changes everything.

When weapons and several opponents come into the equation it also changes everything.
Maybe they should also allow weapons and team mates like in the WWE?

[azam]

Dec 16, 2015 7:08:37 GMT -5 meguro said:

Maybe in youth we are blinded by our own vitality, but after a few years and as injuries accumulate and recovery takes longer the contradiction of training to protect or build-up one's self, while at the same time testing to the breaking point becomes harder to ignore. What is getting harder for me to watch is not necessarily the ground and pound, although that is pretty brutal, it's the knockout itself, which can happen in knockdown karate as we know. The moment when the fighter drops like a puppet whose strings have been cut - that's what gets to me now. The after knockout beating is like the desecration of a corpse, but the knockout is the first insult.

I think it's unavoidable if you want to compete or engage in a full contact martial art.

But I agree with you here - it's important to always feel repulsed from seeing a knockout or feeling that way when you see it. You don't see that feeling in lots of sports combat competitions from either spectators to competitors themselves - at the end of the day it's viewed by these people as entertainment I suppose. It makes me wonder whether the old traditional karate thinking about competition/sports diluting what martial arts is meant to be - holds true to some degree.

In my opinion - if you don't feel that way when you see it - whoever is teaching or instructing you is doing a poor job of instilling those ideals into you & to some degree the student him/herself is only taking part of the lesson home with them after every session.

When weapons and several opponents come into the equation it also changes everything.

Maybe they should also allow weapons and team mates like in the WWE?

Hahaha. Well there are some MMA competitions that involve teammates - I think the Russians came up with the idea - the Latvians started a MMA tag-team organisation:




On a more serious note - as far as unarmed self defense goes Tay - grappling does change everything. So do weapons & several opponents - but you have to be a retard of epic proportions if you think it's smart to stay and defend yourself when an opponent has a weapon or when there are multiple opponents.

No martial arts style in the world will prepare you enough to do knife/gun disarms (the idea of which I find laughable - I wonder who has been crazy enough to try that & how many got injured or killed trying it) or how to deal with multiple opponents because all martial arts styles deal in the premise that the person signing up has some common sense lol.