wullie
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I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, there's no way you can prove anything!
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Post by wullie on Jul 16, 2011 4:19:17 GMT -5
I have nothing against grappling for sport but as a self defence option I reckon its a big no-no.
Firstly body size and strength come more in to play with grappling/clinching, my own grappling skills are basic at best but anyone under 90kgs (200lbs) is going to have a hell of a job moving me and even more so if i'm striking, kicking, stomping, gouging, biting, etc all of which I have no qualms about doing when things get real.
Secondly, getting entangled with one opponent is all fine and dandy one on one with a referee and rules but when theres not and his mates are getting involved not having the freedom to move is going to cost you dear. Once saw a big strapping fella KO'd by the guy he was fighting's girlfriend, the girl was tiny but big enough to bottle the guy from behind.
Finaly, going to ground on concrete is not fun, throw some broken glass in the mix and things get messy real quick. Now your on the ground how are you going to get back up if other people decide to have a go at you?
Now remember this is real life not a movie and no matter how tough we are in the dojo or in tournament getting hit with bottles/furniture/etc f***ing hurts and will knock you out.
A wee story about why I dont do clinching in a street fight. One of the first places I worked was a bit rough but the head bouncer was a boxer so I reckoned I could learn a bit from him. The main clientele of the place was trawler men, some of them real hard cases, anyway one night a brawl broke out I was taking care of one guy and the boxer clinched another who was overwhelming him, the trawlerman bit his cheek and took out a massive chunk. Now not every guy in the street will bite but I dont want to take the chance
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GJEC
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LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
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Post by GJEC on Jul 16, 2011 5:12:03 GMT -5
Hard to disagree with the logic Wullie, but I'd add two things.
First, we have to be prepared for being grabbed ourselves. That means (in the dojo) someone has to be the grabber and someone the defender. Skill is required for both roles so we can do things safely and effectively.
Second - as was pointed out to me recently - 'if we only have a hammer everything looks like a nail'. My own way round this is to expect the seniors to spar with the juniors using controlling skills, of which grabbing and keeping them off balance is a key part.
OUTSIDE the dojo against a dangerous opponent I agree 100%. Bang them out as soon as possible. Quicker means safer as there's less chance of being caught and less chance of bystanders getting involved.
But I don't like hurting weaker opponents. If someone loses their rag with me over something stupid and it's just not worth smashing them, 'soft skills' may be useful.
Gary
Edit: As an ADDED bonus the training is horrible. I never realised (as a striker) how much extra fitness it takes - and develops - being pulled around.
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wullie
Member
I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, there's no way you can prove anything!
Posts: 725
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Post by wullie on Jul 16, 2011 6:25:45 GMT -5
Totaly agree we should all be prepared to defend against grabs, its the getting too involved with one person that worries me. I teach, use and have 'used' various chokes and sleepers (Monty's favourite  ) and I know what you mean about weaker opponents, like everything else theres a time and place ;D |
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wullie
Member
I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, there's no way you can prove anything!
Posts: 725
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Post by wullie on Jul 16, 2011 7:06:25 GMT -5
We have a bit of 'fun' now and again called minute in the middle, everyone in the class gets a kick sheild apart from the one in the middle who just has to avoid get floored by the mob who are pummeling/pushing and pulling them. It's completely knackering, especialy so when its a big class with 20 folk coming at you and theres no escape ;D
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Post by walshy on Jul 16, 2011 7:46:37 GMT -5
Edit: As an ADDED bonus the training is horrible. I never realised (as a striker) how much extra fitness it takes - and develops - being pulled around.[/quote
We did some grappling the other night, just for a bit of fun. Back to back on our knees then 321 turn and grapple. No higher than the knees and no striking. We did the best of five and it was knackering!! Very strength sapping with a 75/80 kg bloke on top of you trying to get the advantage.
I agree with Wullie though i would not want to go to ground for any reason, but it was an interesting exercise seeing just how tiring and painful it can be. Osu
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GJEC
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LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
Posts: 3,218
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Post by GJEC on Jul 16, 2011 7:52:57 GMT -5
We don't train for that sort, ours is more based on pulling people around or off balance. The constant re-adjusting and trying to stay stable so you can strike or kick is very tiring.
I'm not one for rolling on the mats, I don't even like getting that close to the wife any more.
Gary
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Post by senshido on Jul 16, 2011 8:29:55 GMT -5
We don't train for that sort, ours is more based on pulling people around or off balance. The constant re-adjusting and trying to stay stable so you can strike or kick is very tiring. I'm not one for rolling on the mats, I don't even like getting that close to the wife any more. Gary ;D I hope for your sake she doesnt read any of this!! |
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Post by powerof0ne on Jul 16, 2011 12:11:53 GMT -5
I don't teach my students any ne-waza, BJJ, submission wrestling, etc. even though I do have some experience in it. I do imagine I should at some point but right now it's not necessary.
My reason why is because I'm not training them for MMA fights, BJJ tournaments, and I don't think it's realistic to how people typically fight in real life.
I do teach my students in stand up clinching (neck wrestling) with knees, kicks, punches, elbows, and head butts. I do teach my students some throws and take downs from standing up and how to defend them. I even teach a few "joint locks" but more of manipulation the shoulder and elbow than focusing on the wrist. Everything I teach is starting from stand up and it's to land a big strike to end the fight quickly.
I posted on K4L last night I see some big flaws in the logic that the US Marines and Army have "martial art systems" that seem to focus more on Brazilian jiu jitsu than anything else. I'd welcome any experienced BJJ black belt to grapple me with full body armor on, I'd love to film it to post on youtube. I even have the body armor! I have a few ballistic helmets, vest with all the plates LOL (never know when shit hits the fan!).
Another thing that always drove me bonkers at BJJ schools is when somebody would say something like "yeah, I have a fight coming up" and they're talking about a grappling tournament! My definition of a fight involves some striking, not two grown men only focusing on position and submissions. I have yet to hear about a real fight in real life where one person is just going for the submission. I'm sure it's happened with the popularity of grappling now but it's still not the norm.
With all of that being said I've put some years into BJJ, enough to feel comfortable in how to avoid and position myself to land some elbows, knees, and head butts, if need be on most practitioners of it.
Osu!
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Post by walshy on Jul 16, 2011 18:18:22 GMT -5
We don't train for that sort, ours is more based on pulling people around or off balance. The constant re-adjusting and trying to stay stable so you can strike or kick is very tiring. I'm not one for rolling on the mats, I don't even like getting that close to the wife any more. Gary We don't usually do anything like that, it was just 15 mins of fun after a toughish lesson. Not really my thing, but we had a laugh! |
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Post by meguro on Jul 28, 2011 9:04:22 GMT -5
Hard to disagree with the logic Wullie, but I'd add two things. First, we have to be prepared for being grabbed ourselves. That means (in the dojo) someone has to be the grabber and someone the defender. Skill is required for both roles so we can do things safely and effectively. Second - as was pointed out to me recently - 'if we only have a hammer everything looks like a nail'. My own way round this is to expect the seniors to spar with the juniors using controlling skills, of which grabbing and keeping them off balance is a key part. OUTSIDE the dojo against a dangerous opponent I agree 100%. Bang them out as soon as possible. Quicker means safer as there's less chance of being caught and less chance of bystanders getting involved. But I don't like hurting weaker opponents. If someone loses their rag with me over something stupid and it's just not worth smashing them, 'soft skills' may be useful. Gary Edit: As an ADDED bonus the training is horrible. I never realised (as a striker) how much extra fitness it takes - and develops - being pulled around.  I like the way you have seniors fight with juniors, Gary. Gaining the upper hand and using controlling technique puts one in a position to determine whether the fight will end with a bang or a whimper. For the juniors, it helps them recognize when they are in trouble and hopefully how to avoid it. Yeah, I don't believe real fights start out like a wrestling match either, po1. I do believe the other guy might try going for a tackle or headlock as they are quite simple. Kids with absolutely no training do the same just horsing around. Once you are that close, even the most rudimentary of grappling skills will be handy. |
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Post by powerof0ne on Jul 28, 2011 11:04:11 GMT -5
Hard to disagree with the logic Wullie, but I'd add two things. First, we have to be prepared for being grabbed ourselves. That means (in the dojo) someone has to be the grabber and someone the defender. Skill is required for both roles so we can do things safely and effectively. Second - as was pointed out to me recently - 'if we only have a hammer everything looks like a nail'. My own way round this is to expect the seniors to spar with the juniors using controlling skills, of which grabbing and keeping them off balance is a key part. OUTSIDE the dojo against a dangerous opponent I agree 100%. Bang them out as soon as possible. Quicker means safer as there's less chance of being caught and less chance of bystanders getting involved. But I don't like hurting weaker opponents. If someone loses their rag with me over something stupid and it's just not worth smashing them, 'soft skills' may be useful. Gary Edit: As an ADDED bonus the training is horrible. I never realised (as a striker) how much extra fitness it takes - and develops - being pulled around. I like the way you have seniors fight with juniors, Gary. Gaining the upper hand and using controlling technique puts one in a position to determine whether the fight will end with a bang or a whimper. For the juniors, it helps them recognize when they are in trouble and hopefully how to avoid it. Yeah, I don't believe real fights start out like a wrestling match either, po1. I do believe the other guy might try going for a tackle or headlock as they are quite simple. Kids with absolutely no training do the same just horsing around. Once you are that close, even the most rudimentary of grappling skills will be handy. Very true, I've had a few guys try to tackle me LOL! I think as a kid I've had a headlock or two attempted on me as well. Osu! |
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Post by meguro on Jul 28, 2011 19:27:57 GMT -5
On grabbing, next to ESP, it's the next best thing for knowing where your opponent will be and what he's planning to do. If you have a superior grip, you control the fight. This extends to preventing the drawing of a weapon or cocking a fist, setting up the head butt, spinning the opponent off the line, etc.
Of course, grabbing your opponent puts you close enough to be grabbed yourself, thus opening up the fight to grappling. Still, if you can utilize a superior grip at the early stages and end it, you'll be home in time for supper.
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Post by powerof0ne on Jul 29, 2011 15:40:51 GMT -5
On grabbing, next to ESP, it's the next best thing for knowing where your opponent will be and what he's planning to do. If you have a superior grip, you control the fight. This extends to preventing the drawing of a weapon or cocking a fist, setting up the head butt, spinning the opponent off the line, etc. Of course, grabbing your opponent puts you close enough to be grabbed yourself, thus opening up the fight to grappling. Still, if you can utilize a superior grip at the early stages and end it, you'll be home in time for supper. All very good and true points. I'm a huge advocate of grabbing, clinching, and grappling + striking. More to position yourself to maximize your strikes. I have a similar motto I go by for ground grappling, position before submission..striking = position for strike. That can mean stepping off the center line into your opponent's "blind spot" and taking advantage of them with a hiza geri or soccer kick across their face . I know this is no, new news for you, Meguro. Posting it for those that haven't experienced it to hopefully make others curious enough to try it out! I also honestly think a huge part of "old school" Karate was grabbing and striking, or as I like to say the "grab n' bash." The more focused that much karate is on sport tournaments takes away from a lot of this, unfortunately. Yes, there are dojo that still train this plus tournament style but there are also that have "lost" or "forgot" much of this and just don't do it. Of course there are styles such as Enshin, Ashihara, etc. that are known for using such tactics. The old Judo + Karate combination can't be ignored. Osu! |
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wullie
Member
I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, there's no way you can prove anything!
Posts: 725
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Post by wullie on Jul 30, 2011 1:42:23 GMT -5
On grabbing, next to ESP, it's the next best thing for knowing where your opponent will be and what he's planning to do. If you have a superior grip, you control the fight. This extends to preventing the drawing of a weapon or cocking a fist, setting up the head butt, spinning the opponent off the line, etc. Of course, grabbing your opponent puts you close enough to be grabbed yourself, thus opening up the fight to grappling. Still, if you can utilize a superior grip at the early stages and end it, you'll be home in time for supper. I reckon we will agree to disagree on this, grabing with one hand leaves you with one free hand to hit/defend with. Unless you can control both of the other persons arms he can still strike/pull a weapon. In clinch they can still headbut and bite. In a 'real' situation I always assume that the opponent/opponents know how to fight dirty that way you dont get so many nasty surprises. Like the old saying goes " Plan for the worst, hope for the best". |
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Post by powerof0ne on Jul 30, 2011 8:19:19 GMT -5
On grabbing, next to ESP, it's the next best thing for knowing where your opponent will be and what he's planning to do. If you have a superior grip, you control the fight. This extends to preventing the drawing of a weapon or cocking a fist, setting up the head butt, spinning the opponent off the line, etc. Of course, grabbing your opponent puts you close enough to be grabbed yourself, thus opening up the fight to grappling. Still, if you can utilize a superior grip at the early stages and end it, you'll be home in time for supper. I reckon we will agree to disagree on this, grabing with one hand leaves you with one free hand to hit/defend with. Unless you can control both of the other persons arms he can still strike/pull a weapon. In clinch they can still headbut and bite. In a 'real' situation I always assume that the opponent/opponents know how to fight dirty that way you dont get so many nasty surprises. Like the old saying goes " Plan for the worst, hope for the best". Surprised you and I disagree on something Wullie  It's like clinching and kneeing...it's very hard to "block" knees. Your defense is your offense. Your defense is having superior grabbing/clinching skills. Osu! |
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) and I know what you mean about weaker opponents, like everything else theres a time and place 
