Aiki arts making sense later?

[powerof0ne]

Something weird I've noticed is that I'm now better at the Aikido and Aikijujitsu I used to study. I only made it to brown belt, and I trained at a dojo where we did a "gendai budo" of Aikijujitsu called Icho ryu which I posted on here about before, but we also trained in Aikikai Aikido.

I ended up quitting because it just got to be nonsense to me, everyone but one person trained far too compliant, and unrealistic for my liking. Every Aiki dojo I've checked in my state is this way, too, unfortunately.

With that being said, with the bunkai I already know from kata, and experience from other martial arts, a weird phenomenon has happened to me over the last 7 or so years.

I now seem better at the tenshin, tai sabaki, and being able to apply the Aiki techniques I learned back when I was in high school. It's weird to me because I don't actively practice it anymore, or am not intentionally....

Anybody else have a similar experience?

With this being said when I teach my students "goshin jitsu," the more advanced stuff are Aiki techniques, and I modify most of it to be more "harder" with the nonsense taken out of it, so it can also work on larger and resisting opponents. Sounds crazy, huh? With that being said, it's just variations of about 3-4 different types of shoulder/elbow/wrist manipulations.

I tend to focus more on immobilizing and submitting the shoulder/elbow than I do on the wrist. It's very hard to get a wrist lock on a capable fighter that is resisting, is why.

Unfortunately, I don't spend that much time on this with my students because I notice it takes a lot of training on their part to get it down, and that isn't the aim of what I'm teaching, or the "big picture" of it all.

Now, I'm not calling myself a "master" of Aiki martial arts, but I definitely have noticed that I'm much better at it then I used to be, and am able to use it on most resisting opponents, which is something I wasn't able to do back when I got my brown belt in Aikido/Aikijujitsu
Osu!

[hokuto12]

I understand about the too compliant techniques and the uke just going down. I also have heard from a lot of people about the shitte uke relationship and this and that. I also got to 1st kyu and couldn't continue any longer just got too much. So I went back to Shinkyokushin in the middle of the year. It has also helped with striking as you learn to move the body as one in Aikido.

[powerof0ne]

Aug 15, 2012 2:18:47 GMT -5 hokuto12 said:

I understand about the too compliant techniques and the uke just going down. I also have heard from a lot of people about the shitte uke relationship and this and that. I also got to 1st kyu and couldn't continue any longer just got too much. So I went back to Shinkyokushin in the middle of the year. It has also helped with striking as you learn to move the body as one in Aikido.

Where Aikido and Aikijujitsu have helped me the most is in close combat and ukemi, and I would even dare say neck wrestling/"Thai" clinching and kneeing/kubi sumo . That was early on, though, I wasn't as successful with it until more years of karate and Muay Thai.

So it almost seems as if I had to get more experience with "combat" to be really able to apply it, but the weird thing is, I haven't been active in training in Aikido or Aikijujitsu.

I just find this really strange...maybe 20 years from now this will make more sense to me LOL.
Osu!

[GJEC]

It makes perfect sense to me.

When you trained in Aikido years ago you were still in 'full attack' mode as a testosterone fuelled young man.

Now, a bit older and a bit less aggressive, the subtlety of Aikido that seemed a bit nonsense before starts to come through.

Welcome to middle age.

Gary

[havamal]

been doing some aikido and jujutsu training, at the expense of karate training.
aikido people are way too compliant and predictable, but the utemi (high falls) is good conditioning.
jujutsu's very ambitious in the scope of coverage for the amount of dojo time, that includes weapons training: interesting, but unfocused.
feels like I am not as strong now, wanting more contact karate training...

[GJEC]

Come back to the dark side ...

Gary

(Good to see you posting again)

[powerof0ne]

I practiced ukemi by diving off my Dad's back deck into the back yard, onto the grass...I was 14-16 at the time LOL. I wouldn't purposely do this now, unless I actually had to...the things we do when we're younger, and actually think they're a good idea to do .
Osu!

[powerof0ne]

Aug 16, 2012 2:51:13 GMT -5 GJEC said:

It makes perfect sense to me.

When you trained in Aikido years ago you were still in 'full attack' mode as a testosterone fuelled young man.

Now, a bit older and a bit less aggressive, the subtlety of Aikido that seemed a bit nonsense before starts to come through.

Welcome to middle age.

Gary

I overlooked this, and wish I didn't, and I think you're right. However, it's funny how simple this seems, but many of us males don't really understand it, until we're older .

Sort of how most things seem to be in martial arts, and life...doesn't make sense in the beginning, why we're doing such a boring and monotonousness task, but it really is the foundation for later on.
Osu!

[havamal]

I'm restoring my balance of time in favor of karate training.
even "point" sparring's more fun & unpredictable than aikido "jiyu keiko."
my "baby" aikido only works on compliant dudes, the tough guys will not fall to my waza unless they want to. old aikido used to have punching and kicking practice, but not my aiki dojo: I don't think many have seen the effects of a strong punch or kick

aikido & koryu jujutsu are mainly for entertainment for me.

www.koryu.com/

[altavista111]

Of Course It Makes Sense..

getting trained in Aikido even years ago helped you to be in 'full attack' mode as a testosterone fuelled young man. i read this reply above and i must say i am fully agree with it.

[tmd]

Guess I'm the oldest teenager on the block still I like the Akijutsui stuff that I do and I like the Krav stuff but I still prefer out and out hitting stuff

The additional issue I have with it personally is I dont have great joints so although I enjoy it I am more prone to injury there than at karate, currently have an over extended elbow - went black before the class even ended for about 3 inches either side of the joint, 3 weeks on and still struggle to streighten it pain free

[meguro]

Having a good training partner is essential to avoiding joint injuries. The young guys seem to like cranking on a lock without realizing how much leverage they are applying.

I think the problem with Aiki arts, from a practical standpoint, is that they don't emphasize the when. Every technique seems to depend on " a guy grabs your wrist," or " a guy steps and punches you slowly." When do these things happen? Aikido would get more respect if it trained more distancing, blocking, and trapping in order to set up the small joint attacks.

[powerof0ne]

The Aiki folk never liked doing randori with me, and made excuses to avoid it. Even the ones that were around my age, outside of classes ,that were my rank or higher would avoid it. Only one would do it, but he was also a Vovinam (Vietnamese martial art) instructor and definitely had years of experience in other stuff. He would blend his Vovinam with Aiki stuff. Now, I don't think I'm no Steven Seagal but must admit he was the main reason why I got into the Aiki arts to begin with.

I've considered really getting back into the Aiki arts but the dojo that's only a minute or two from me charges a ridiculous amount of money for a private dojo at somebody's home...it's a matter of principle for me not to pay as much as this instructor wants.

The major modifications I've done with simple things such as kote gaeishi in Aiki arts is instead of just focusing on the hand (some don't focus on the hand but I do as the entry) and wrist..I also get in tighter and utilize the opponent's elbow, neck,spine and shoulder. So in kote gaeishi specifically I also use the opponent's elbow and shoulder against them. I utilize two to three other larger areas than just the wrist when using an Aiki technique. There were a few techniques like this in Aikido and Aikijujitsu that I was taught, but most of it was focused primarily on the 5 kyo of the wrist. Like most things, it's one of those things I could easily demonstrate in person to better explain it. I find kote gaeishi is very hard to make work on anybody the same size as you or larger, that's non-compliant..but I'm sure many Aiki yudansha would disagree. I use kote gaeishi as an example because it's one of the most basic techniques taught in Aiki arts...almost like a mae geri or gyaku tsuki in karate.

Now, I didn't say you can't perfect he basics, and vastly improve them.

I also don't consider myself an Aiki anything instructor but somebody that took something I was taught years ago and have made it more effective for myself. What I have found is that my younger college age students and those that never trained in Aiki arts struggle with what I teach them, to make it work, like I used to in Aikido and Aikijujitsu.
Osu!

[meguro]

Aikido teaches how to hack the human body, ie. how to exploit the natural limits of the joints. That's useful info for anyone, however it doesn't really teach you how to fight. I agree with your conclusion about securing a wrist lock on a non- compliant opponent. It is pretty much like trying to catch the tail- end of a whip. It would be much easier to work further up the chain, like elbow, shoulder and neck, as you mentioned. Judo and JJ work further up the chain than the wrist because those joints are more robust and can stand a little more cranking. In a one on one, it is better to attack the elbow or shoulder (and work down to the wrist if you must, but having destroyed the elbow or shoulder, targeting the wrist seems a bit much). For two on one, where you enjoy the superiority of numbers or in law enforcement applications where you might get some compliance, I can see the wrist maneuvers coming into play with little problem.