Can/ how would you fuse Muay Thai and Shotokan?

[chrissyp]

Hello there,
I've recently started training Shotokan Karate, after doing Muay Thai for years, in an attempt to change my over all striking game up, learn new ideas, ext.

In exchange for learning Shotokan, i'm helping teaching Muay Thai at my friends school... we've been throwing ideas back and forth, on training, techniques, philosphys, it's been good fun, very fun and englightening to understand the "method behind the madness" of karate.

Ultimately, my goal is to fight Knockdown and Muay thai... my question is, from anyone who's did both, am I wasting my time?
What can shotokan add to my muay thai/striking game?
would would I had to adjust from muay thai to fight knockdown?
Other then training shotokan techniques for full contact, what techinques/aspects of shotokan in general would have to be adjusted for a full contact fight?

[curlbroscience]

I did the reverse trained in Kyokushin and Shotokan and then transitioned over to Muay Thai.

In exchange for learning Shotokan, i'm helping teaching Muay Thai at my friends school... we've been throwing ideas back and forth, on training, techniques, philosphys, it's been good fun, very fun and englightening to understand the "method behind the madness" of karate.

Have you sparred or had personal trainings sessions with your Shotokan friend? If so, what have you learned from that experience?

If your goal is to fight Knockdown and Muay Thai I would suggest to stick to that type of training.

Shotokan can enhance the understanding of distance and timing with relation to countering with punching. Different angles and movement in that same regard. Ashi Barai with Tsuki Waza combinations.

To transfer shotokan techniques to full contact it would just require lots of padwork, sparring and conditioning drills.

I think PO1 can speak on the adjustment from Muay Thai to Knockdown.

[GJEC]

Shotokan can be great but I don't see it as a route to Knockdown.

Some years ago I watched one of the top UK practitioners warming up with a 'this is going to be easy' smile before fighting at Crystal Palace - the then home of the British Open Knockdown Tournament.

Smashed.

Gary

[chrissyp]

Sotacram, I think my idea is, I want to "kyokushin-ize" what I learn in shotokan, learn the techniques and moves, but train it, use it, prepare it like as if i was doing kyokushin...you might ask "Why not learn kyokushin/knockdown"...the reason for htat is, there is no gym in my area that teaches that.

[meguro]

You might have a problem training with your Shotokan mates if you have not apprised them of your kyokushinizing plan. Give them fair warning that you'll be going for their legs and that they can do the same to you.

[GJEC]

I think what most points fighters find the hardest to adapt to is the constant pressure that good KD fighters apply. I've seen a few land a perfect chudan gyaku-tsuki then skip back and mentally relax as they waited for the point to be acknowledged. The look of surprise on their face was priceless when the KD fighter didn't even blink, just kept attacking.

I hope your training partners are willing to apply constant pressure, or it will be hard to get ready to compete.



Gary

[curlbroscience]

Jan 25, 2013 11:44:24 GMT -5 GJEC said:

I think what most points fighters find the hardest to adapt to is the constant pressure that good KD fighters apply. I've seen a few land a perfect chudan gyaku-tsuki then skip back and mentally relax as they waited for the point to be acknowledged. The look of surprise on their face was priceless when the KD fighter didn't even blink, just kept attacking.



Gary

That is a HUGE mental roadblock to overcome is the idea of ikken hisatsu in Shotokan sparring. On the other side of that coin is being constantly barraged and chased down with punches and kicks. The distance in KK sparring is a big game changer as you do not have the luxury of being able to stay behind a jab/teep/roundhouse in Muay Thai or bounce around in Shotokan.

In terms of "Kyokushin-izing" shotokan movements you would probably do better to Kyokushin-ize your combinations and understanding of Muay Thai. Not to say that Shotokan movements are not adaptable to Kyokushin, but the type of fighting rhythm found in Muay Thai is more akin to Kyokushin.

One thing that I have found of great use from Shotokan is being able to enter on different angles or to take different angles to create distance in Kyokushin sparring. This is of great importance as a short fighter 169cm against much larger opponents.

[MMX]

And this is why I love KDF. Awesome discussion here! I am just soaking it in.

[curlbroscience]

[youtube]
www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-rdUv9LXTc
[/youtube]
Whilst this is not the best representation of Muay Thai in Kyokushin (due to the fact that there is no punching on either side) This is Sakmongkol competing in a knockdown karate tournament.

[chrissyp]

The Sotacram posted reminded me of this... Not sure who the Thai fighter is, but that Karate fighter is Andy Hug!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehOrQJ27_l4

[powerof0ne]

1. What Muay Thai camp(s) did you train under, in other words, lineage? My lineage goes to Muangsurin and JockyGym camps for Thai style Muay Thai, and for "Dutch style," goes back to Tjakai (Rob Kaman was first Tjakai)

2. Are you qualified to teach Muay Thai? Meaning, an Ajarn or at least a Kru gave you their blessing? I ask this because there are many people in the US, far too many that are not, that IMHO shouldn't be teaching Muay Thai.

In my honest opinion, I wouldn't try to fuse Muay Thai and Shotokan. I myself came from a heavy shito and goju ryu background to Muay Thai...and sort of "fell into" knockdown karate from there. I tell many that I reverse engineered "Kyokushin," and I don't recommend that others do what I did. In some ways, I understand the technical probably a lot more than many do or should...but if I could do it all over again I would have started with Kyokushin, first(if that was an option).

The other questions would be, what type of Shotokan are you training in? JKA, SKA, Kenkajuku, etc.?

I will say I trained with somebody that was a black belt in knockdown karat and won a Sabaki tournament for it, if I didn't, I would have probably have gotten hurt bad in my first knockdown tournament. Meaning, if I just tried to fuse straight Muay Thai with the goju/shito that I already knew...that would have been a disaster. You need to train with those that are some type of knockdown karate style and have experience fighting and hopefully winning in knockdown karate tournaments. I could spend a long time explaining why, but I'll make a simple analogy:

Would you train to enter a basketball tournament by working with a baseball coach?

Speaking for myself, I know I wouldn't.

I have fought in both Muay Thai, never lost a MT fight, and have fought in knockdown, wishing I could say I never lost a knockdown karate match but I was never KO'd/TKO'd neither.

With all of that being said, if you never fought Muay Thai, IMHO, you shouldn't be teaching Muay Thai. All the real Thai camps only let those that have fought & had experience training/cornering their own fighters teach Muay Thai on their own. I may sound like a jerk, but I'm being honest, here. This goes back to the beginning of my post, and I may have misunderstood you, too, maybe you have fought and trained/cornered your own fighters.

The bottom line is, do what makes you happy, far be it from me or anybody else to tell you what to do. However, if your goals are to compete in knockdown karate, train with those that have experience fighting in knockdown and training those in knockdown...the more successful they are, the better your chances are!

The same goes for Muay Thai, train at a good camp with experienced trainers that have some success.

If you're relying on a Shotokan dojo that you're teaching Muay Thai to, to coach you and corner you for a Muay Thai fight, that's just asking for pain...


I hope you enjoy your time on this forum and look forward to you posting more.
Osu!