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Post by meguro on Mar 18, 2014 16:27:54 GMT -5
The Lost Boys. Join us.
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Post by MMX on Mar 18, 2014 16:41:21 GMT -5
I cannot say one is better than the other in totality. What I will say though is that for a fighter/martial artist the explosive strength gains from KB's are a better match than just working on Maximal strength alone.
You can get the same by learning Barbell Olympic lifts but they are more technical than their KB cousins.
FOR ME I find the KB to be the best bang for the buck out there. I also enjoy the challenge of Bodyweight stuff like the Pistol and the One Arm Push Up. I may go back to barbell one day but it will be for Deadlifts and Military Press and Bent Press.
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Post by meguro on Mar 18, 2014 17:16:22 GMT -5
It is like combining the explosive strength of a sprinter coming off the blocks with the endurance of a middle distance runner.
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curlbroscience
Member
Testing the waters. Thanks for the forum MMX!
Posts: 1,517
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Post by curlbroscience on Mar 18, 2014 17:21:32 GMT -5
My cardio is much better on the KB program I am on now. I feel like a bit of iron plating has left from certain areas. It's just a different feeling and a bit of trade off between the two. If it were not for the focus of a certain goal I would include both implements. "If everything is a priority, nothing is a priority."
There was a great article by Dan John on lifting for old age.
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Post by karate4life on Mar 18, 2014 18:22:26 GMT -5
"If everything is a priority, nothing is a priority." There was a great article by Dan John on lifting for old age. OSU! Yes, very true. Are you kidding me??!?? Thanks for the feedback, guys, much appreciated! OSU!
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curlbroscience
Member
Testing the waters. Thanks for the forum MMX!
Posts: 1,517
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Post by curlbroscience on Mar 18, 2014 23:15:48 GMT -5
"If everything is a priority, nothing is a priority." There was a great article by Dan John on lifting for old age. OSU! Yes, very true. Are you kidding me??!?? Thanks for the feedback, guys, much appreciated! OSU! Haha! Not any thing toward age but interestingly enough he had a quick chart reference to the muscle groups that require focused hypertrophy work due to age. The glutes and chest were on the list if I recall. so for more mature knockdown Karateka I would say a program with bench and deadlift would work wonders for armor building Kettlebells can do a lot for a strong back and legs, that never quit, but the king of chest hypertrophy exercise is the bench. (Special place in my heart for the overhead press.)
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GJEC
Member
LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
Posts: 3,218
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Post by GJEC on Mar 19, 2014 5:12:13 GMT -5
I stopped benching some years ago, replaced by KB floor presses/handclap press up combo's.
I noticed no loss of inches or muscle tone but felt I punched sharper.
I never counted myself as a 'good' puncher yet much to my surprise broke a sternum quite easily a while ago demonstrating an SP drill.
So it begs the question; How much power do we REALLY need? Or do we just want more for the sake of it?
Gary
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Post by meguro on Mar 19, 2014 6:11:13 GMT -5
For people of a certain age, I include myself in this crowd, I wonder if training with heavy weight, whether in the bench press, squat, deadlift, etc. is warranted. 20 years ago, I did not feel this way, but now a lot of things can go wrong with the hydraulic system, so many places to blow a seal or spring a leak. With a kb the risk is limited, I feel, and the benefits not insignificant. And, after accidentally breaking a training partners ribs, I don't think there has been any loss in power. In fact, I am sticking to open handed striking, even to the body as I don't want to get a reputation for abusing training partners. . I train with non-knockdown folks these days so a little goes a long way.
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GJEC
Member
LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
Posts: 3,218
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Post by GJEC on Mar 19, 2014 8:09:45 GMT -5
This heavy / light debate always reminds me of wanting 180mph cars in a country with a 70 mph speed limit. Nice to have but totally unnecessary.
We all agree we need impact but that can be found in many ways. Old time boxers hit hard but avoided weights in many cases as they felt it slowed them down.
So there's a good case and many reasons to use KB's as the tense / relax nature of the lifts is more similar to striking than huge pressure against large weights.
But there's more than one path, as we know, so experimentation and experience helps. I can no longer strain against heavy loads for fear of something popping and bleeding, so light (ish) KB's suit me well.
Each to their own.
Gary
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curlbroscience
Member
Testing the waters. Thanks for the forum MMX!
Posts: 1,517
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Post by curlbroscience on Mar 19, 2014 10:02:58 GMT -5
This is based on my own experience and I am sure others mileage will vary based on other factors.
With a grain of salt and respect:
In my own regimen the only press that I do is OH and I can see a noticeable difference in chest muscle hypertrophy from when I incorporated bench work in 5/3/1 and the ES program. The additional chest hypertrophy made me feel sturdier. Like being in a mid-size truck vs. a compact car. It did not make my punching any worse or better, but I felt like I could walk in to almost anything. There is more than one way to armor build (hypertrophy and callus) and I think any good program should include some type of BW/Barbell/KB chest press exercise. On a side note, I feel like my oblique muscles have grown significantly with the OH pressing which were absent in my ES and 5/3/1 program. The reason why the bench barbell is king for chest hypertrophy is load. You can overload the barbell to the limit of your weights and ability without manipulation (BW and technique work) or static weights (KB poods).
Tension should be the same for each lift regardless of weight as it is good practice to eliminate leaks and can make even the lightest load be a great total body workout. You do not have to be tense to lift heavy weight, 50% of very strong is strong. But still good practice for safety sake (health is another matter and would be an interesting conversation).
How much strength do we need? Just a little more than the other guy. Punching technique is technique and should be developed independent of a good S&C program.
In terms of size and power and the purpose of having a 180mph car, will anyone want to race it? Maybe, but surely they must know what the outcome is going to be. "The concrete was his enemy."
Again this is just based on my own experience and testing from some of the S&C people we all read.
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Post by MMX on Mar 19, 2014 11:18:02 GMT -5
Good discussion! Yes I agree with that assessment on the bench Curl. When I benched heavy I could take chest punches all day. Did it help my punch power? No not really. Now when I started doing regular bouts of KB swings I noticed not only did my punches improve but also my kicks. Good stuff.
There is not one program or one method for all. Best is to experiment with various methods. That being said for explosive strength gains the KB might be the best tool for the job.
Osu!
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Post by karate4life on May 3, 2015 14:47:55 GMT -5
Osu!
Reviving this thread. Any comment is welcome. Thanks!
I've been doing Jim Wendler's 5/3/1 for lifting for a while now, I'm within cycle whatever (lost count). My current stats:
190cm 105kg (I could lose, say, 5kg, but then why bother? I don't compete, I feel great, I think I look good, and I love to eat, so hey...)
1rm Bench press: 97.5. Pathetic, I know. I blame it on being a rather tall dude with long arms. Deadlifts: 205.0 Squats: 155.0
All weights are in [kg]
I did the following during the last two weeks which I believe is typical for what I usually do:
Monday, April 20th, 2015 Bench: 67.5/77.5/82.5: (5/5/5): 5/5/7 Additional Bench: 85: 5x3 Butterflies with 15kg dumbbells: 3x8 Bag Work, untimed
Tuesday, April 21st, 2015 Squats: 100/115/130: (5/5/5): 5/5/6 Additional Squats: 110: 3x5 Kumite combinations, untimed
Thursday, April 23rd, 2015 5 minutes shadow sparring, basic moves (hands, knees, mae geri, low kicks) 3x2 minutes bag work: a) hands, b) low kicks, c) hands & knees 10 minutes stretching 3x2 minutes bag work: a) jodan mawashi geri, b) mae geri & jodan mawashi geri, c) hands Overhead Press: 40: 5x5
Took my time between bag work sets and then pumped out what I could. I feel like I gain more from bag work when I rest at least 1 minute between each round, rather than hurrying myself through the session. Well, I'm not in a hurry anyway...
Sunday, April 26th, 2015 Deadlifts: 145/165/185: (3/3/3): 3/3/3 Additional: 140: 5/5/10/10/5
Wow! These stes with 10 reps nearly made me throw up. Awesome and scary at the same time...
Tuesday, April 28th, 2015 Bench press: 72.5/82.5/87.5: (3/3/3): 3/3/3 Additional bench press: - 87.5: 3x3 - 80.0: 3x5 - 60.0: 3x10
Bag work: 3x2 minutes
Shadow sparring: 3x2 minutes
Wednesday, April 29th, 2015 Lunchtime session, 45 minutes Junbi Unbo Kata, 3 times each: - Pinan Sono Ichi - Pinan Sono San. Well, that sucked. - Pinan Sono Yon. Well, that was good. - Shisochin - Saifa - Gekisai Dai Ichi
3x1.5 minutes shadow sparring
Pull-ups: 5x5
Friday, May 1st, 2015 - Shadow sparring 5 minutes - Short stretch and goblet squats - Squats: 110/125/140: (3/3/3): 3/3/3. I think I had another 1 or 2 reps in me, but decided not to do it - no spotter today, S is out and probably trying to get some girls. - Additional squats: 110: 5x5 - Shadow sparring 5 minutes - Bag work: 4x1.5 minutes (hands, low kicks, mae geri, some jodan mawashi). Basically tried to let it flow and do whatever the bag's swing told me to do.
Saturday, May 2nd, 2015 - Bag work, hands, 3x2 minutes - Stretching, 5-6 minutes - Bag work, hands, low kicks, mae geri, 3x2 minutes. Toasted from here on. Wow! - 50 Mawashi geri jodan @ bag. Stand in kamae, breathe in deeply, shout, kick, imagine you're trying to KO someone and hurt them really badly while doing it, put in maximum hip thrust and engage the entire body. Call me Christian Midori! - Bag work, 2x2 minutes, very relaxed, half speed - Side split 10 minutes
Sunday, May 3rd, 2015 Bench press: 75/85/92.5: (5/3/1): 5/3/2 Additional: - 92.5: 5x1 - Downward progression, just for the fun of it: 85/80/75/70: 3/5/5/5
Some mellow bag work in between sets, but nothing fancy really. Just banging that bag a bit.
Osu!
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Post by meguro on May 4, 2015 6:35:29 GMT -5
I don't want to hear about your long arms! Apply some of those engineering problem solving skills to improve your bench.
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Post by MMX on May 4, 2015 11:23:19 GMT -5
Osu! Welcome back Karate4life. Nice to see your progress.
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Post by karate4life on May 4, 2015 13:17:25 GMT -5
Osu! Welcome back Karate4life. Nice to see your progress. Thank you MMX. While I'm not sure what kind of progress my Karate made in the last 12 months (it feels more or less the same like it always did, I'm sure all of us know that feeling to some degree), I made some tremendous advances in lifting. I'm proud of that, and I enjoy lifting very much. Monday, May 4th, 2015 Lunchtime session
Junbi Undo Kata, 3 times each: - Pinan Sono Ichi - Pinan Sono San - Pinan Sono Yon - Gekisai Dai Ichi - Gekisai Dai Ni - Saifa - Sanseru Stretching
Osu!
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