GJEC
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LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
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Post by GJEC on Jun 12, 2014 2:16:31 GMT -5
Was on FB earlier and some zealot had posted a grainy film of two old masters. The comments were very respectful, a few quotes thrown in, the usual stuff.
I thought it was crap.
Here's my theory. Those old boys gave a starting point, much like Benz when he stuck an engine on a carriage. Since then others have refined and improved their ideas, some in the pursuit of excellence, some to make them available to the masses.
But I doubt Maclaren meetings start with silent reverence to Mr Benz.
So why people post video's like that baffles me, about as much as people who quote them as if they are quasi religious truths. We've moved on.
Gary
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Post by meguro on Jun 12, 2014 2:34:07 GMT -5
You're comments get me smiling and I have to agree. Quasi religious is right. I have a theory about deification and group identity- some folks who define themselves by the people they associate with will tend to uphold one or a few that seem to exemplify the values of the group, and then exaggerate those qualities in the hope, I suppose, that those qualities will reflect on them. Overtime, the exaggerations reach mythic proportions. Video is a good reality check. Anywho, I would think that the greatest compliment one could pay to an instructor is to surpass him or her. We didn't all stop learning after kindergarten.
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on Jun 12, 2014 4:59:44 GMT -5
Agreed.
It's (MA) almost like some daredn't try new stuff out of an exaggerated sense of loyalty. In kyokushin (I know I'll get slayed for this) lots talk about unity and getting back to the vision of Sosai Oyama. People quote him left right and centre and answer questions in their business or homelife with "What would Sosai do?"
I find all that spooky. It's looking in the wrong direction. If there is one key principle that Sosai Oyama embodied it is 'evolve'. He wasn't delighted with what he had learned so he crafted something better.
Back to motor cars. Can anyone imagine a meeting at Ford where they all - dewy eyed - talked about Henry Ford and the Model T as the very pinnacle of all things automotive? Nor me.
Gary
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monty
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Post by monty on Jun 12, 2014 8:52:23 GMT -5
Or computers, if we still used the methods and technology of Babbage's time we'd need a PC the size of Loughborough to get the computing power we get now.
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on Jun 12, 2014 9:10:14 GMT -5
MA Luddites if you ask me. Gary
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Post by MMX on Jun 12, 2014 11:32:16 GMT -5
Yes and yes. One thing I like about Enshin is it is evolving as it goes on. Sure at first it was very similar to Kyokushin/Ashihara but in recent times the throwing/trapping/positional applications are increasing.
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curlbroscience
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Testing the waters. Thanks for the forum MMX!
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Post by curlbroscience on Jun 12, 2014 16:04:31 GMT -5
It's been explained to me that part of the rituals within Karate (particularly the opening rei and shomen) are related to ancestral worship. It's a common practice for Karateka to go to the founder's grave site to clean and practice a kata or two. I also understand that some Organizations have within their dojo kun or mission statement "preserving the intangible cultural treasure of Okinawan Karate" to be a reason why they post the grainy videos and such. In that way they are successful. Historian or modern day pioneer. The same thing can be said about the first MMA athletes. Frank Shamrock, Guy Mezger, Tank Abbott. Pioneers of their day held obsolete in today's environment. Would there be any point to watching their old fights in the same way that boxers watch old fight footage of some of the greats? I am grateful for all of the modern day pioneers of combat art and sport (even Mr. Abernethy and his Bunkai) because it allows for more open testing of past theories held to be true because "Sensei said so." Evolution allows for retrospect on tradition. Maybe it makes it that much more valuable, maybe you junk it with the idea that a "Jab is worthless in MMA." I am also grateful to those historians that wish to preserve the martial art as a whole so that when we invent 'new' ways of applying a hold we can go back to the roots to research. Great discussion
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Post by Ros on Jun 13, 2014 2:07:27 GMT -5
Certain martial arts often seem to have a lot in common with religions, personality cults and hero worship. For example:
organised behaviour definitions of adherence rituals/sermons/mythology narratives and sacred history idealised, heroic, at times worshipful image of an individual, often through unquestioning flattery and praise
I imagine the reasons are complex and varied but some of it must come from the 'mystic art brought from the East' culture.
I think evolution tends to be easier in 'sports' rather than 'arts' as the aim is usually straightforward: to get closest to a target, to cross the finish line first, to incapacitate your opponent etc. The question then is 'how can I/my students achieve this most efficiently and effectively within a defined set of rules'. That is reasonably straightforward and can encourage all kinds of experimentation. When dojos have mission statements that includes upholding traditions then I can see evolution being stifled. 'Does doing it this way make it better?' conflicts with 'Yes, but is it upholding tradition?' I imagine it's just easier to do it the way it's always been done.
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on Jun 13, 2014 7:15:03 GMT -5
I imagine it's just easier to do it the way it's always been done. It is and there's value in that. Personal challenge. A feeling of competency and a sense of achievement when things just flow. But I like the Clive Woodward / Dave Brailsford approach of 'aggregation of marginal gains', where every piece is examined and tweaked to get a bit extra. All those little extra bits start to make a difference. It's still within the style but takes into account variations in weight, age, length of limb etc. Of course, if the traditional moves cannot be improved they remain on merit and rightly so. Gary PS I wish you'd come back Ros. We miss you.
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Post by yokozuna on Jun 13, 2014 9:41:58 GMT -5
Sosai's Ghost ! Listen to all this heretical talk ; ).
Seriously, I personally do not see a problem with TMA choosing how they wish to practice their art. Similarly I do not see a problem with modern martial artists choosing to believe in a completely opposite viewpoint. I think there is room for everyone and that each approach appeals to a certain group of individuals.
Whenever I see topics like this it puts a smile on my face because in some sense it is a little absurd to think that any "system" is better than any other. I really think it comes down to the ruleset or situation that will determine which approach is "better". What works on the tatami, may not work in the octagon. What works in the octagon, may not work on the street. What works on the street, may not work on the tatami.
I think that's why MMA is so appealing to the masses. There is an impression that the techniques used in MMA will be the most useful in the broadest range of situations.
If we are really talking about Evolution in the Darwinian sense, then wouldn't all forms of fighting systems that are strictly stand up be in danger of being thought of as archaic and/or traditional ?
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GJEC
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LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
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Post by GJEC on Jun 13, 2014 10:18:04 GMT -5
Ha Ha Depends on what you're training for doesn't it? I'd argue that money has made MMA a spectacle now and rules mean it is also a sport. Nothing wrong with that, but it does mean it's just another branch on the evolutionary tree. By the behaviour exhibited, not necessarily the highest one Gary
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Post by yokozuna on Jun 13, 2014 10:31:21 GMT -5
Depends on what you're training for doesn't it? I agree 100 % with that statement ! I also agree that many proponents of MMA may not exhibit the best of manners but I also wonder how much of that is showmanship and marketing. One thing is for sure, UFC is lightyears ahead of many if not most combat entertainment organizations. They are organized and have deep pockets. Not bad for a bunch of guys that started 30 years ago putting on "fight nights" at indian reserves.
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Post by meguro on Jun 13, 2014 17:24:24 GMT -5
Ha Ha Depends on what you're training for doesn't it? I suppose it is not a leap to assume we, on this forum, are fighters (as opposed to dancers) so from this perspective, TMA sucks. This is a different criticism than Gary's car analogy which is valid. TMA is not even to the point of Ford's model T, maybe it is at the Flintstones mobile before the discovery of wheels. Stepping away now. Somebody's cranky.
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Post by Ros on Jun 14, 2014 3:36:12 GMT -5
If we are really talking about Evolution in the Darwinian sense, then wouldn't all forms of fighting systems that are strictly stand up be in danger of being thought of as archaic and/or traditional ? If we are talking about evolution in the Darwinian sense, then it only applies to living organisms.
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monty
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Post by monty on Jun 14, 2014 3:39:55 GMT -5
If we are really talking about Evolution in the Darwinian sense, then wouldn't all forms of fighting systems that are strictly stand up be in danger of being thought of as archaic and/or traditional ? If we are talking about evolution in the Darwinian sense, then it only applies to living organisms. Trust the scientist to point that out !
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