GJEC
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LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
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Post by GJEC on Jun 17, 2014 9:08:22 GMT -5
I used to think that but now disagree. Advances in training methods, skill, conditioning, diet, mental strength etc are driven forwards by the urge to compete and win. I'll take that over 'tradition' any day of the week. What do you think? (PS Please don't quote others ...) Gary
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Post by senshido on Jun 17, 2014 9:53:13 GMT -5
hhhhmmmm I need to think more about this!! no answer yet from me more thoughts... a few minutes after my original post I think "mystery" is the wrong word for me, but I kind of agree with the sentiment
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Post by alan on Jun 17, 2014 9:58:11 GMT -5
Just my thoughts:
A lot of people hide behind "mystery and budo" and maybe think of karate as something spiritual and they must attain this enlightenment and secrets before they are "worthy" Who am i to say this is crap but this is what i think. If somebody wants to be "religious" fine but don`t mix it up with the ability to defend oneself. I am sure there are benefits to meditation etc but i just cant see how all this can help the fighting ability? But mystery sells hey across the board, nice marketing ploy in my opinion.
While we are on about this sort of thing i actually saw this with my own eyes:
Wood breaking, in my opinion a complete waste of time (tradition like budo) and some of the best fighters in the world apparently agreed with me when they were quickly shown what they were expected to do and the method outside the fighting area at K2....Yep, these great "Russians" were totally clueless about wood breaking, they just concentrate on winning major tournaments and have most people aspiring to be like them!
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Post by senshido on Jun 17, 2014 10:11:18 GMT -5
There are a lot of technicalities that you might never come across in competition training... but that would be if you ONLY trained for competition. Certainly your SP training etc would cover the things I'm thinking of but if you were 100% training for competition I think there is a lot to miss out on.
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GJEC
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LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
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Post by GJEC on Jun 17, 2014 10:14:52 GMT -5
Lets face it, unless you work a door or act like an idiot most of us will rarely encounter life and death situations. Even if we do the traditional (complex) might evaporate faster than algebra in a maths exam. So simplicity, reliability, controlled aggression, impact all come to the fore. How do we improve those? Constant repetition and seeking an advantage. Few things drive progress as much as the will to win, except maybe the desire to not get a good thrashing in front of a crowd. Gary
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Post by meguro on Jun 17, 2014 10:39:44 GMT -5
Karate suffers from too many hucksters of mystery if you ask me.
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Post by alan on Jun 17, 2014 10:46:42 GMT -5
There are a lot of technicalities that you might never come across in competition training... but that would be if you ONLY trained for competition. Certainly your SP training etc would cover the things I'm thinking of but if you were 100% training for competition I think there is a lot to miss out on. As an "outsider" i have come around to your way of thinking, by outsider i mean somebody now not training. I think that the Kyokushin syllabus is there for a reason, i do think it is slightly complicated by unnecessary katas (i am not saying all of them ) but in my opinion there are too many and the form/bunkai used is unrealistic in todays way of fighting and it is only the first few katas that switch balance and stances that help a beginner learn to fight, from my limited knowledge of advanced kata i can`t see much to help in tournament fighting and as Gary has said before if you over complicate things in the street it could cause problems, so what`s the point? Maybe you boys who have forgotten more about karate than i have ever known could explain? The few fights i have been involved in my karate only helped me by making me more aware of what hurts if you don`t block it and cover up, i might be a pleb but my first reaction has always been a good punch in the jaw area but the fights i got involved in were never going to be life or death as we all know a good punch in the throat calms most people down but can also detriment ones liberty.
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on Jun 17, 2014 11:10:25 GMT -5
I just look back on a lot of training and I got the most from getting ready to compete.
We're all motivated to seek pleasure and avoid pain so getting 'right' mentally and physically provided both.
But we're all different. Some like technical training for it's own sake. But 90%? Not for me. I needed more of a challenge.
Gary
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Post by MMX on Jun 17, 2014 11:43:25 GMT -5
If the goal is to maintain the "tradition" than that may apply.
Me? I am in it for other reasons that line up more in Self Protection and fitness area. I am fortunate that Enshin is modern and evolving as it goes. Training for a knockdown tournament addresses both of those areas so I would agree with Gary.
So short answer to the pic is FALSE.
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on Jun 17, 2014 12:56:12 GMT -5
I'm most inspired by training that helps people fight out of their skin and find something within themselves.
'Traditional' and 'points' never moved me that way.
Gary
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Post by senshido on Jun 17, 2014 14:15:10 GMT -5
I'm just thinking of wee things, like the angle of my fist if I hit the cheek, no big complicated moves. e.g. if my right tate tsuki is about 20 degrees left of vertical, it fits a cheek nicely. I now naturally hit the face that way.
but don't get me wrong, I loved the blood, sweat and tears of tournament preparation, for me though there is more to it... I like the tradition, but don't believe all the mystery shite.
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Post by Ros on Jun 18, 2014 2:00:09 GMT -5
I think one of the great things about karate is that it can cater for all different kinds of motivation. For those that want to compete, great, we can do that. For those that want to get fitter, yep, we can do that. For those that just want to improve for 'art's' (for want of a better word) sake, we can do that too. For those that are too old, too knackered or just interested in the social side, well, that's kinda OK too. Certainly, I found competition training very different from normal training and quite exhausting mentally and physically. I wouldn't want to sustain it for too long, anyway. I also found that I was concentrating on my best fighting attributes and completely ignoring the things I knew for sure I wouldn't be throwing on the mat. I suppose if that continued long term, each person would drop the things they weren't immediately confident with and lose several things that they could become proficient with in time. My opinion is that there are lots of urges that drive people to improve and not everyone's motivation will be the same. Now for some, that might be competition, but it might well not be - and my guess is that those who do want to compete are in the minority. So, to sum up m'lud, the quote is false because it is 'should' this and 'are going to' that, but would maybe approach the truth if it was more: Competition can really help get the best out of some students, but it probably shouldn't make up the majority of training for various reasons.
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Post by meguro on Jun 18, 2014 5:17:50 GMT -5
Deep sigh. Correct me if I got this wrong. How any instructor can talk about mystery and claim authority at the same time, has me flabbergasted. If it's a mystery to you, you might as well get in line with the rest of us. When head honchos start talking mystery, I'm inclined to think they know little about the practical and so emphasize the woo.
What about the technical knowledge- why not test it on the mat? If it can't be tested reasonably, then it sounds like bs. We can change the rules to test whatever it is we want. For me, there is a huge disconnect between the technique that can be found in kata (you knew that), and what we test in knockdown.
off to ponder the mysteries. ohhhmm.
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on Jun 18, 2014 5:19:58 GMT -5
I think that's a fair assessment Ros.
As you know I never force people to compete or think less of them if they don't. It's more that the drive to get better is easier to harness and direct if there's a target date etc.
In our club I've always worked on the theory that if we have one competitor everyone mucks in and helps so indirectly everyone gets something out of it.
At my youngest's school they have a 'traditional' sports day where they award 1st, 2nd and 3rd, and a 'fun' day where points are added up and the house with the most points wins. Both give benefits but I'd say the ones where the kids get immediate personal awards is more popular, even for the kids that don't win.
Gary
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on Jun 18, 2014 5:28:34 GMT -5
Deep sigh. Correct me if I got this wrong. How any instructor can talk about mystery and claim authority at the same time, has me flabbergasted. If it's a mystery to you, you might as well get in line with the rest of us. When head honchos start talking mystery, I'm inclined to think they know little about the practical and so emphasize the woo. What about the technical knowledge- why not test it on the mat? If it can't be tested reasonably, then it sounds like bs. We can change the rules to test whatever it is we want. For me, there is a huge disconnect between the technique that can be found in kata (you knew that), and what we test in knockdown. off to ponder the mysteries. ohhhmm. Agree. I don't want mystery, I want effective. Now, as I have repeatedly said I was a competitor more than a fighter although I could have a scrap if I needed too. But mysteries in either scenario are worthless to me. If I was selling a product and needed customers - sorry disciples - to keep drawing at the well I'd hold stuff back. My mentor, Brian Fitkin, showed you everything he knew and still beat you. That's the model I prefer. Gary
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