The road to perfection- a fool's errand

[meguro]

You are supposed to suck at karate for a long time, so goes the conclusion of an article in karate by somebody. The author presents a scenario where a student is crushed by his instructor's helpful hints to twist his hip this way, adjust the hand height just so, just when he thought he had perfected his technique. The road to mastery is a long one, we are encouraged, and we may never ever be satisfied by how our karate is. Just what kind of karate takes a lifetime to master? It surely can't be harder than brain surgery, so what gives?

It seems to me that this kind of karate is aimed at those of a certain kind of personality disorder, I don't know. Someone lacking self confidence and oppressed by a sense of unworthiness. If only they do enough repetitions in the mirror, maybe then will they earn sensei's approval. Well, it sounds like the key ingredient to a conman' s business plan. How about, instead of punching air, and then trying to fathom its perfection, you actually punch something, better yet someone? How about, instead of chasing the ever lower kiba dachi, find a way to use kiba dachi in a fight without ruining your knees?

The marketing of perfection, of an art of endless pursuit is a scam. You know the argument, the best punch is the one you never see coming. That right there should tell you the direction effective karate training takes. Forget about how it looks. Measure achievement by what you accomplish.

Sorry, I had to get that off my chest.

[Ros]

I think students are ever-willing to believe it as well because, let's face it, almost all of us are quick to see our own faults and happy to beat ourselves up if we get caught with something when sparring.

[meguro]

Yes, but sparring is something you can measure. You win, or walk away knowing where your real deficits lie and how you might address them in training. OTOH, getting your karate to look just right, it will never look just right. You can measure strength, flexibility, fitness and fighting skill, but perfection? Obviously, I'm aiming this at kata competitions, my pet peeve, and also the dojo and ranks that go along with that sort. But really, I was saddened to see one of ours discouraged by that kind of mentality.

[MMX]

Ahhh. Well in Enshin we don't worry about that stuff. We worry about what is effective. Movement,position and attacking. Kata is just for learning the moves,getting the flow,having a manual in your head of the techniques.

[GJEC]

I read someone once who said "In time of war we train to defeat the enemy. In time of peace we train to better ourselves"

I'd choose a Glock and a hobby personally but each to their own.

What is perfection? If it works!

Gary

[noahh]

Osu!

I think I might have read that article GJEC, was it frome Karate by Jesse?

Anyway,

Perfection and aesthetically pleasing are definitely not the same thing. There are many arguably perfect occurrences in nature that aren't aesthetically pleasing (eg. Grouper ).

Pursuing aesthetically pleasing technique is fine as long as the student knows that's what their doing.

At the same time I don't think "It works" is necessarily the gold standard. Particularly where big or strong students are concerned. If we simply accept it at the point it works for them, they may never utilise the full leverage they achievable. I've always found little fighters have a lot to teach big fighters.

There are angles, heights, pivots, hip movement, broadly speaking mechanics for every technique. There is IMO for each technique a perfect combination of those aspects. We should aspire to get that, in doing so we will satisfy the "It works" criteria too.

I should note I don't subscribe to the theory you can't achieve perfection (mastery) of a technique. Holding onto it is a whole different story. I would imagine the same is true for the brain surgeon you mentioned there will be the occasional perfect surgery but most of the time a live patient is perfect enough.

Osu

[GJEC]

While I agree 'it works' is easier for the naturally strong and aggressive, I've seen many natural scrappers turn themselves into technically excellent karate-ka who had lost the ability to win.

This is the elephant in the room. Some people train their natural reflexes out and trade 'it works' for that next belt or complex kata.

So I want the right balance. As MilkManX said, in Enshin skill and effectiveness go much easier together than in some styles.

Gary

[meguro]

I can't argue against a Glock and a hobby, so put me down for those.

Here's a little bit about what I am railing against. Imagine you are a student trying to get that double hip swivel, hula dance move with your hips in uchi uke gedan barai. Firstly, why are you in musubi dachi? Secondly, how can this move be applied realistically, while keeping faithful to the dictates of "perfect" techniques? I ventured to ask my Sensei in Japan what this move was for. "A simultaneous groin strike and mid-level block," he said. I remember it well because that moment was one of the fissures that led to my eventual break. No. This is worse than busy work. Why lay down neural pathways for a skill we are unlikely ever to need?

If it is unusable, perhaps the discipline to perfect this move is part of that ephemeral "artiness" of our art. Yeah, I mean no. I didn't mean to turn this into another rant about applications, so please forgive me if you got this far, but here we are. What if uchi uke gedan barai was a purely symbolic gesture like flipping the bird? It would mean that there were a sack of skill sets and concepts to actually master than what one observes. The observable shrinks to nothing. The musubi dachi is of no importance- you are simply on your feet. The uchi uke gedan barai, for example, signify first a straight arm bar then a transition to a hammer lock or chicken wing. As to effectiveness, note that standing armlocks were common in Judo competition until they were declared illegal. They work quite well.

So, my point about the endless pursuit of perfection: I think more thought should be given as to what we seek to perfect. It would be a shame to follow a dead-end path, when instead the other is more rewarding, and useful.

PS.
My interpretation of uchi uke gedan barai, I admit, could be completely wrong, and my Sensei was correct all along. I guess I am the poorer karateka for being unable to implement a simultaneous groin strike and middle section block.

[GJEC]

I was told the same thing meguro and I suspect my first instructors had no clue what they were teaching it for.

It was quite telling in the old Leicester dojo that when we did 'self-defence' training it was nothing like karate. Pete Kisby had studied self-defence before kyokushin and we'd be reversing grabs, using hip throws and twisting arms up behind backs.

But - and it's a big but - these practical skills miss a very big part of Japanese style training, the need to polish and practise. Everyone likes to accomplish something and for some the more complex a puzzle they have to assemble the better they like it.

As long as they remember to ditch the complex outdoors and stick to basic and ferocious, no harm done. I just cringe though when I see stuff sold as practical that is anything but. I know it's 'buyer beware' in MA but it really should be fit for purpose.

I'm not sure if anyone has ever put together reliable stats for success rates in various MA when faced with street violence or attempted rape etc.

"Do martial artists fare better than people who just take no shit and get stuck in?" Is a question most dojo don't want answered.

Gary

[noahh]

Oct 9, 2014 5:06:58 GMT -5 GJEC said:

"Do martial artists fare better than people who just take no shit and get stuck in?" Gary

That's a little like asking if the couch potato or the runner is going to have a better chance of outrunning a bear isn't it?

The guy with the fitness, technique and experience is going to have a better chance particularly in the martial arts example, because the art should cultivate (and advance) the characteristics of "Taking no shit and getting stuck in"

Osu.

[GJEC]

Should do Noahh if this all makes sense.

Gary

(Posted this yesterday on another thread:

This dovetails in with meguro's road to perfection thread.

Unarmed combat taught the 80/20 rule before anyone else was using it. 80% was about 'intent'and only 20% was about skills. The skills must be effective of course, but not neccessarily extensive.

So many martial arts and combat sports miss the point. 100% of time spent on skill and fitness, hoping that the demands of training will forge a will of iron and body of steel.

But does it? Not always or even not often as the health and safety and commercial requirements keep sanding down the rough edges. The commando's didn't have long to train so attitude was the main requirement.

"Recruit character. Train skill"

Gary)

[noahh]

Oct 10, 2014 1:10:17 GMT -5 GJEC said:

Unarmed combat taught the 80/20 rule before anyone else was using it. 80% was about 'intent'and only 20% was about skills. The skills must be effective of course, but not neccessarily extensive.

So many martial arts and combat sports miss the point. 100% of time spent on skill and fitness, hoping that the demands of training will forge a will of iron and body of steel.

But does it? Not always or even not often as the health and safety and commercial requirements keep sanding down the rough edges. The commando's didn't have long to train so attitude was the main requirement.

"Recruit character. Train skill"

Gary

[/i])

[/quote]


Osu!

Nicely put.

[curlbroscience]

Regarding Uchi Uke, Gedan Barai (not necessarily the stance), it is a fairly common combination through all styles of Karate.

I usually think of that combination as a push, pull or pull, push type action. Where a hand is clearing and striking High or low (not necessarily at the same time). I've been taught the block/strike and joint application.

Saenchai clearing the lead hand low and coming across with an elbow.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIX6lSomOpE

Same example of clearing the lead arm and striking up top
giant.gfycat.com/ContentPepperyHerculesbeetle.gif (Large gif)

It's been bunkai'd to death and some of the more recent ones look wing chun-y. Use of double blocking and trapping an arm to come over the top.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7BkNK8pYhg

The road to perfection is lined with self loathing and doubt.  Isn't that the path to the darkside?

[shugyo]

Improving ones MA betterment, imho, isn't a fools errand!! Until I shed my mortal coil, I'll strive to improve my MA betterment with any means possible.

When I become perfect, I'll stop my daily pursuit. Until then, I'll keep pursuing.