Can't figure out what's TRUE about Mas Oyama

[alan]

Talking about what`s true and what`s not concerning Sosai, does anybody know the answer to this:

Hanshi Arneil told me he was the adopted son of Sosai (and has stated this on many occasions), this happened because Hanshi wanted to marry, "Japanese" apart from any other reasons that were between Sosai and Hanshi... his adoption oiled the wheels of officialdom at the time, so he could marry a lot easier (see k4l interview) than otherwise.

Now on Cameron Quinns budo forum, Shihan Cameron states there was no official record of Hanshi being adopted and had nothing to do with Sosai`s family after his death, etc; etc. see the statements, HIS words not mine. (this is how i understand his statements....please read before accepting my statements are true )......serious disclaimer chaps!!

The statements are under an I.F.K thread on Cameron Quinns "no holds barred"budo forum, if you are interested, read both Hanshi`s interview and Shihans statements and tell me who is telling porkies?

[powerof0ne]

It's really hard to say, I by chance read the thread on Cameron Quinn's forum just a few days ago.

Cameron Quinn, from all my communication with him is a man that tells the truth, and has had considerable direct experience with Sosai. I don't think any of us can argue the latter. On the other hand, Hanshi Arneil is a man that I have never communicated with, but a man by all accounts, who I respect for his martial art experience.

I wonder if it's a case of Sosai lending his name to Hanshi Arneil telling people "he's my son" without actually going through the full adoption?

With all of that being said, Cameron Quinn's forum is greatly biased towards IKO Sosai's organization. Granted, there are definitely people there with experience, but if you're not a member of IKO Sosai, don't expect to be greeted with gum drops & lollipops . I am not questioning Cameron Quinn's knowledge of Kyokushin, his rank, or people he vouches for, I'm just telling it how it is on his forum.
Osu!

[alan]

Mind the splinters on that fence, P.O.W

[GJEC]

With all due respect to Cameron Quinn, you might as well ask a Cardinal to side against the Pope ...

He is probably the most loyal of all Sosai's students and I admire him for that, but whether that gives him a balanced view is open to debate.

I was at the meeting in a Cardiff hotel before a tournament where Steve Arneil talked to his high grades about what was happening with Japan. The actual content and discussion was confidential, but I'll just say there are two sides to every argument. (Joining Po1 on the fence)

This (once again) is the paradox of martial arts. Teachers invest hour after hour into making their students mentally and physically strong, then get upset if the strong minded student then grows some balls and - shock, horror - disagrees with them.

It happens a lot.

Gary

PS - Pass the tweezers when you've done with them Po1

[powerof0ne]

LOL, I'll remain on that fence but at least I know I'll have some company!

I know far too many people that are still in the IFK/BKK or have been, that I have nothing but respect for to just plainly accept what is said on Cameron Quinn's forum.

I also don't just dismiss what Cameron Quinn says, neither.

I wasn't even born when Hanshi Arneil was training with Sosai, so how could I be there to really know? I'm going by what others say, which isn't 100% hard proof for me.

My theory is that Sosai Oyama may have used his reputation and contacts to set up Hanshi Arneil with his wife. I believe Sosai Oyama may have gone as far as introducing Arneil as "his son" and called him, his son, to his face.

I have seen this done in other Asian cultures in the past, as a sign of respect, is why I have this theory. One of my own past instructors used to refer to me as his "younger brother." I'm sure if he was old enough, he would have referred to me as "his son" instead but he is only 10-12 years my senior in age.

Just my theory on what might have happened, but I really don't know. Is it also possible to seal adoption records and birth records in Japan? I know here in the USA it's very possible to do so, which could be another explanation of what happened, too.

I can't legally claim I'm part Native American Indian due to such stupid laws, even though if you look at my Grandma, it's obvious she's full Native American...her Mom was full Native American and could claim it too, is why it's even more ridiculous.

So, with that all being said, I don't typically openly accuse somebody of lying until I have all the facts. I certainly wouldn't want to oppose the IFK/BKK and Cameron Quinn for anything less.
Osu!

[GJEC]

I wouldn't say anyone is lying, but this much I know -

Karate high grades are just as capable as the rest of us of putting whatever 'spin' on things they require.

I feel sorry sometimes for the 'perfection of character' brigade. They must be sadly disappointed.

Gary

[powerof0ne]

I'd also like to mention that as quite a few of you already know, possibly not all, that Sosai Oyama did indeed smoke cigarettes at a point in his life. I have heard this through quite a few sources I find 100% reliable.

So, the urban legend that Sosai Oyama never smoked isn't really true. However, I'm going by what some very reliable sources have told me, but I find this to be true.

I could care less if somebody smokes, smoked, or never has. It doesn't say anything about the quality of martial art experience they have, it's irrelevant! I have no idea why that untrue fact has been told and is still being told.

I only bring this up to show that not every "fact" about a head of a martial art organization is necessarily true.
Osu!

[alan]

Both very good answers which i thank you for.

I suppose the fence IS the right place to be with this....after you with the tweezers Gary!!

[evergrey]

OSU, it does seem like our dear Sosai was long on declarations and short on legal documentation. Heh.

[noahh]

Osu Evergrey,

Nicely written and well balanced.

I think we all chose to believe elements of the legend. I hold them true if only to make me continue to strive to be better. We as karateka will likely never have a death punch capable of felling a bull but as long as we believe it is possible we will never stop pushing.

Osu!

[evergrey]

OSU noahh, thank you very much!

Yeah, I'm going to talk with people who knew him... the ones who are willing to chat, anyway! I really want to learn more. I want to try to write a lot more about him, get more balanced information from people who knew him and who don't have a chip on their shoulders, if possible. I'd love to hear stories so I can write them down before they are lost forever... maybe when I'm a shodan, I can hear some of those "black belt stories," lol!

OSU

[powerof0ne]

The ones that know the real juicy stories will probably not tell you unless you're in their inner circle. Unfortunately, I don't have Hanshi Arneil, Shihan Quinn, Shihan Isobe, Kancho Matushima, and a few others on speed dial....like they'd tell me, even if I did. I wouldn't expect them to tell me anything if I asked them. The few of them I do communicate with ever, it's more of just exchanging pleasentries.

Recently I was shown a personalized keepsake that Sosai gave to somebody, but was sworn to never show it on the internet. I will say it's priceless but my lips are sealed to what it is and who has it. I know, I can be a cruel bastard but I will say if I owned it, it would be my most valuable possession. That's about the most "secretive thing" I know besides the whole smoking thing which I blatantly told because if you dig around online you can actually find another person or two that has spilled the beans on that.
Osu!