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Post by MMX on Oct 7, 2015 16:31:56 GMT -5
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azam
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Post by azam on Oct 8, 2015 14:42:01 GMT -5
That is fascinating. I feel like I've read this from somewhere before - from a different site, a long time ago. There is a lot about Sosai that is glossed over. The one's that I've researched I'll share - maybe this thread can serve to place fact from myth. 1. He trained Goju-ryu from Yamaguchi & So Nei Chu --- there is no evidence that either of these men trained extensively with Chojun Miyagi. In the case of Yamaguchi - the evidence is quite clear that he had trained with another Goju practitioner originally from Okinawa but there is no real evidence how proficient this practitioner was - forgotten his name! 2. He only trained two years in Shotokan from 1946. It's highly unlikely that he learnt from Gichin Funakoshi as by this time he was an extremely old man. He couldn't have learnt from Gigo either as he passed away in 1945. I'm of the believe that he most likely learnt from Masatoshi Nakayama or whichever instructor Nakayama had instructed classes there. Nakayama himself only studied with both Funakoshi's for 5 years while he was studying at Waseda University - English Literature before departing to China and returning 10 years later. By this time Funakoshi was an old man, Gigo had passed away & Egami was suffering from ill health that plagued him for life. It explains why there seems to be a disconnect between kata in Kyokushin in comparison to Okinawan styles. I mean I have yet for someone to explain the purpose of Garyu... There's quite a lot of other stuff I've learnt from researching over the years - I'll add more when I get time. |
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Post by meguro on Oct 9, 2015 7:56:03 GMT -5
Garyu, Oyama's invention wasn't it? If Oyama himself didn't indicate the purpose, who else can say? However, since kata are limited by the human body, it is possible to compare the movements in Garyu to those in other kata and to discern applications. Familiarity with other martial arts will assist in this process. That two types of supported "blocks" are repeated many times suggests a fascination with very simple wrist locks (my interpretation). Then there's the front head lock/neck crank which precedes the dreaded jumping over a stick application (joke). Whether Oyama had real applications in mind, or cut and pasted moves from other kata, I can't say. Did he mean, use wrist locks as entries to takedowns followed by finishing movements on the ground? Dunno, but that's how I read it.
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azam
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Posts: 79
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Post by azam on Oct 10, 2015 7:14:18 GMT -5
Garyu, Oyama's invention wasn't it? If Oyama himself didn't indicate the purpose, who else can say? However, since kata are limited by the human body, it is possible to compare the movements in Garyu to those in other kata and to discern applications. Familiarity with other martial arts will assist in this process. That two types of supported "blocks" are repeated many times suggests a fascination with very simple wrist locks (my interpretation). Then there's the front head lock/neck crank which precedes the dreaded jumping over a stick application (joke). Whether Oyama had real applications in mind, or cut and pasted moves from other kata, I can't say. Did he mean, use wrist locks as entries to takedowns followed by finishing movements on the ground? Dunno, but that's how I read it. Yes I agree - he seems to be fascinated with simple wrist locks although I'd add that in a realistic scenario there not as easy or as simple to apply as when they're taught - easy to do when the person is complying not as easy if someone is resisting unless you're already in a dominant position and that's a big if especially if you have very little experience with grappling & it's components. I've seen some reported bunkai on Garyu which does as you thought wrist lock to takedown - although I'd personally find that whole idea baffling especially since even when demonstrated to me didn't look like it would be very useful as a bunkai application or even realistic or even represented what was being done in the kata. I mean wouldn't it be much more easier to reap with seoi nage that is much more efficient & tested - i.e. more likely to work under a realistic scenario that resorting to this: linkI mean even if you assume that is what is meant - which I doubt - simply because the tori above uses mawashi uke which is not done in the kata until in a crouching position & more importantly what happened to the random jump? I think the above bunkai is an attempt to understand what Mas Oyama meant with Garyu. IMHO I think all he did was cut & paste without any real intention behind it otherwise he would have taught the bunkai for it, but no-one really seems to no which points to no real purpose behind it. I could be wrong of course and will gladly change my mind if the evidence says otherwise. But tbh if you go further back there is no real evidence that bunkai was even an intended consequence from kata - at least the way we understand bunkai. There was a conversation I had with AshiharaFan, Tay, Shinkyoku & others in a thread on the sherdog stand up forum that might be interesting as a read or partly applies here. I'll add the link - it was an interesting collection of thoughts by everyone in the stand up forum from a Karate/Kyokushin background: Sherdog Kata discussion
I learnt a lot by reading other karateka's opinions & learnt a lot by the additional research. |
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Post by meguro on Oct 10, 2015 9:18:37 GMT -5
I think the above bunkai is an attempt to understand what Mas Oyama meant with Garyu. IMHO I think all he did was cut & paste without any real intention behind it otherwise he would have taught the bunkai for it, but no-one really seems to no which points to no real purpose behind it. I could be wrong of course and will gladly change my mind if the evidence says otherwise. But tbh if you go further back there is no real evidence that bunkai was even an intended consequence from kata - at least the way we understand bunkai. The one thing I hate more than videos of aikido demonstrations are karate demonstrations of kata applications. The worst ones follow the kata faithfully, but render ludicrous applications that would never work. Not as bad, but still bad, are the ones that show applications which bear no resemblance to the kata. That kata video was the latter. Whether or not Oyama was thinking about wrist locks, this one looks like a close candidate. Yes, it's an aikido video, and the premise suspect, but the main point is to illustrate a principle; in this case, how to take advantage of limited joint mobility. It is highly doubtful that anyone will be able to grab wrists, as in the karate video, when fists are flying. It is equally unlikely that an attacker would venture to grab your wrist to initiate an attack. However, in the unpredictable rough and tumble, if you or the other doesn't fall to the first strike there will be grabbing, and with grabbing anything is possible. By bunkai, do you mean analysis or applications. I agree that analysis is the unintended consequence of karate masters teaching dances without knowing the applications. From this deficit in understanding you get the emphasis on form and the encouragement that it will all make sense many repetitions down the road. There are of course many close fighting applications, and the movements in kata do represent those applications. The movements are like the words "aloha" or "osu", which can represent some things but not everything. Note, other martial arts do have dances just like kata. Unlike karate some of these arts do teach the applications of the dance moves so that there is no mystery. |
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Post by meguro on Oct 11, 2015 8:59:31 GMT -5
For that kneeling bit in Garyu, pay attention at around the 6 min point of this vid ( the rest is pretty interesting too).
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