No face punches in Kyokushin good or bad?

[GJEC]

I like this forum and these days don't post on any others bar FB

BUT it does make me ask the same question on occasions.

This is "Knockdown Fighters" so I wonder why we often go down the face punches road.

Knockdown as a sport, a challenge, a means of testing yourself, is not designed for self defence, although the good fighters become tough and determined with a range of ways to hurt anyone that crosses the line.

Gary

[senshido]

Nov 30, 2015 16:36:27 GMT -5 slaine said:

I'm with Gary on this , I've never found it a handicap to switch from body to head as to me a punch is a punch , once it's delivered correctly it doesn't matter the target , on a sidenote I've always hated clicker.

Ha ha ...me too, I never did it after fighting knockdown, as yourself and Gary have said, I have never found a problem switching to the head in "real" situations, I honestly cant see why anyone would??

[monty]

I think that Residentrenzo is talking about defending against face punches(sorry if i've mis-understood) rather than using them as an attack/counter.

I think that we are better at defending against round attacks to the head than straight attacks to the head, this could be because we don't tend to attack with jodan Mae geri(and I sure as shit can't do a jodan Ushiro geri or Yoko geri).

[residentrenzo]

My point being doing something I never practice at Dojo and expect to pull it off succesfully quickly and effectively. What are the odds?

"Once a punch is delivered correctly" maybe that's where the problem is... Perhaps I'm standing too close and have bad footwork? I did realize once I started moving around more, took in less shots.

If knockdown is not for self defence, then my kyokushin training days will be over soon. Will definitely switch to some grappling art!
No knockdown tournaments at my age, and clicker/kata are fine but not really my cup of tea.

OSU!

[residentrenzo]

Dec 1, 2015 8:42:30 GMT -5 monty said:

I think that Residentrenzo is talking about defending against face punches(sorry if i've mis-understood) rather than using them as an attack/counter.

I think that we are better at defending against round attacks to the head than straight attacks to the head, this could be because we don't tend to attack with jodan Mae geri(and I sure as shit can't do a jodan Ushiro geri or Yoko geri).

Yes. I can more or less anticipate body punches, because that's what we drill at dojo. Face punches? I got a couple "accidental" hits during kumite by newbies, never saw them coming because we are so sure everybody follows the rules you think you won't get a knuckle sandwich for dinner.

Jodan mawashi kicks look awesome and must be very effective when connected properly. But I can't do them for shit neither. And then most people are saying they're a high risk self defense technique.

OSU!

[GJEC]

I've never got this self sabotage we indulge in, dwelling on flaws instead of benefits.

And after all, if boxers always have all the cards they'd clean up in MMA. But they don't, they often lose badly.

Gary

[residentrenzo]

Holm did get Rousey with superior boxing skills to the point she got KO'd with a textbook mawashi geri jodan.

I'd also guess boxers would have lots of problems dealing with grappling and low kicks in MMA/UFC.

OSU!

[meguro]

Dec 1, 2015 8:43:21 GMT -5 residentrenzo said:

If knockdown is not for self defence, then my kyokushin training days will be over soon. Will definitely switch to some grappling art!
No knockdown tournaments at my age, and clicker/kata are fine but not really my cup of tea.

There's your mistake. Knockdown is not primarily about self-defense. Really, it's an excuse to get together with like minded people and safely beat-up each other. . . or chat. Now the things we do might be useful in a tight situation, no sense in denying that. The same can be said for grappling, some of it will apply- but not all of it.

[azam]

I don't think it's as much of a handicap if you strike first ask questions later like Gary. Sounds like the wild west!!! In fact if you do Kyokushin and don't really train with head punches this is probably the best piece of advice. Although it would be difficult for someone who doesn't have experience in these situations to determine whether I should hit him first or not - especially if you get it wrong and you have the police called on you!

Then again I think the issue is less being able to punch - even though technique/leverage is important - a punch is still a punch - but I feel at least you're more likely to land a punch if you train punches to the head consistently.

The issue is though being able to defend yourself against someone who strikes to your face if for whatever reason you don't get the first punch off or you miss & this is the most common area that will get targeted in these situations.

I agree with Gary too - knockdown isn't an art of self defense (at least anymore) - it's a sport that strengthens the body, builds spirit and increases mental fortitude all of which are necessary hallmarks for self defense & life in general but the tools it provides are lacking at least to deal with the self defense aspect.

I've always held the belief that the way Kyokushin was taught in the 70's to late 90's did a better job of making practitioners better rounded fighters & more importantly more able/apt to deal with the self defense aspects than today.

I think these issues could easily be rectified however unfortunately there seems to be no urgency or will to do so - I think it stems partially from ego & thinking Kyokushin is the best & you don't need anything else. At least the IFK recognized the faults/issues and provided clicker tournaments - although I don't think that will remedy the situation - it's still a positive step and a sign that there are some who see the flaws and realize that these need to be covered.

I think as well that many Kyokushin practitioners don't think there are flaws in their training - therein I feel lies the problem at least if you want to solve it.

I don't think you have to abandon Kyokushin altogether residentrenzo - at least I didn't. Just find an offshoot that does a good job training self defense or if none are around your area try to find something similar.

If you live in the London area - I'm organizing a Kudo club along with the UK branch chief for the London area finally! If you live in the London area or around it - you're more than welcome to come when we get it open. I definitely enjoyed Kudo - felt it was no nonsense and I enjoyed the grappling/format of the training.

[GJEC]

Why buy a sports car then feel sad if it doesn't work off road?

It's easy for me as I sought a challenge rather than a self defence system. Knockdown certainly provided that.

[meguro]

Dec 1, 2015 10:02:05 GMT -5 residentrenzo said:

Holm did get Rousey with superior boxing skills to the point she could KO her with a textbook mawashi geri jodan.

I'd also guess boxers would have lots of problems dealing with grappling and low kicks in MMA/UFC.

OSU!

This doesn't prove boxing is superior. It proves that Holm knew enough about Rousey's go-to technique to practice countering them. Holm was up against the chain link fence and was on the ground with Rousey. She maintained her composure and played her game probably because she worked these scenarios with sparring partners. Rousey predicted her defeat by head-kick in a talk-show interview. She knew Holm's strengths and did not prepare for it (hands down against a kicker, c'mon).

[residentrenzo]

This doesn't prove boxing is superior.

I never said that. I believe she used her skills as tools at her disposal to their best tactical advantage. She dominated the fight from first bell because she thoroughly worked out every possible scenario. She even protected herself against being swept to the ground and pinned down.

This is what Gary's been saying over and over in both knockdown forums, focus on your strengths... judo, boxing or knockdown. Use them to your advantage. I hope I can get the hang of that.

The fact Rousey predicted how she would be defeated proves she was a little too overconfident. Holms said she'd beat Rousey again 10 of 10 times not beause she's got an inflated ego, only because she will train twice as hard next time at least when Rousey comes back. And she will come back... and we're gonna see a great fight between two excellent martial artists.

OSU!

[azam]

Dec 1, 2015 10:20:16 GMT -5 meguro said:

Dec 1, 2015 10:02:05 GMT -5 residentrenzo said:

Holm did get Rousey with superior boxing skills to the point she could KO her with a textbook mawashi geri jodan.

I'd also guess boxers would have lots of problems dealing with grappling and low kicks in MMA/UFC.

OSU!

This doesn't prove boxing is superior. It proves that Holm knew enough about Rousey's go-to technique to practice countering them. Holm was up against the chain link fence and was on the ground with Rousey. She maintained her composure and played her game probably because she worked these scenarios with sparring partners. Rousey predicted her defeat by head-kick in a talk-show interview. She knew Holm's strengths and did not prepare for it (hands down against a kicker, c'mon).

I think Greg Jackson/Winkle John her trainers did a great job.

She rarely got involved in any grappling exchanges. All she did was maintain her range throughout - after all you need to get close to someone to grapple with them. She peppered her with solid jabs/straights using angles to avoid getting countered and to create space so she can re-establish range.

I'm reminded of what Gary said in the kata thread about grappling -

"I was always taught and still believe that takedowns and throws are far easier after a good hard blow.
"

I think the constant peppering of hard shots took away her ability to effectively apply her grappling because even when she did get in range or grappled she was too dazed/slow to be able to apply in the way she usually does.

I don't think Rousey under-prepared - she just didn't have the tools to deal with Holms.

[meguro]

Tools or preparation? The way I see it, Rousey has done phenomenally well for a Judoka up until now. Holm had the advantage of studying Rousey, and credit to her, had the skills to exploit Rousey's weakness. If Rousey decides to come back/re-match, she'll have to fill that hole in her game. Can she/will she?

On striking before grappling, this isn't aikido where your partner gives you his arm.

[GJEC]