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Post by powerof0ne on Dec 4, 2011 23:25:56 GMT -5
Am I the only one that some times thinks there should only be taikyoku sono ichi? I'd love to hear some opposing arguments against this to convince me otherwise . Seriously, I personally don't see the reason for more then one, and variations of it. I remember in shito ryu we did the same pattern and called them "kihon kata" and had 5...and did gyaku tsuki versions..and another version which I forgot off the top of my head. Then in Kyokushin it's "only" 3 but then there are other variations. I do believe taikyoku sono ichi is a great introductory kata, especially to really get a beginner proficient in zenkutsu dachi, mawatte, gedan barai, chudan tsuki...and moving while doing all of them. I know this may be considered blasphemy by some but I'm trying to think practical. Osu!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2011 23:44:27 GMT -5
I can agree that Taikyoku Sono Ichi and Ni are so alike as to basically be interchangeable. Taikyoku Sono San is still useful though as the uchi uke in kokutsu dachi is present in a lot of later kata and introduce new students to shifting from a back stance into a front stance.
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Post by senshido on Dec 5, 2011 8:18:55 GMT -5
bigal.. you took the words out of my mouth have a wee bit of exhalt!
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Post by powerof0ne on Dec 5, 2011 11:23:22 GMT -5
I'll retract what I originally said about sono san but sono ni is necessary? Ura?
This isn't something I'm trying to convince anybody to change but just something I've been thinking about lately as I teach and watch my own students do kata. Osu!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2011 21:25:54 GMT -5
When practicing kata, I usually pick either one or the other admittedly (Ichi or Ni), rarely do both.
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Post by powerof0ne on Dec 6, 2011 0:49:56 GMT -5
For blue belt grading I only have my students do either ichi or ni, and then san. I don't have them do all three, and I'll randomly call out either ichi or ni . However, I do let them know this ahead of time so they can make sure they have it down but it's not really that difficult. Osu!
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Post by senshido on Dec 6, 2011 5:10:32 GMT -5
I quite like ura, but dont do the kata that often, what I find with ura is that most people "spin" which is incorrect, you should push the foot through, place it then twist the hips. I think the problem with ura kata is that they are done at about the same speed as the normal versions, if you do ura correctly, thats pretty much impossible (IMO)
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Post by powerof0ne on Dec 6, 2011 12:28:20 GMT -5
With Ura I see most people, almost all, if not all doing the kata at the same speed...so I thought that was the correct way of doing it . Osu!
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Post by pandorasvise on Dec 6, 2011 16:23:20 GMT -5
Agree about ichi and ni. they are so alike. Want to have fun with it though? I teach beginner class and I havn't had any new student, just students trying to get enough hours for the belt test lately. I made them do taikyoko sono ichi, ni , san. It is first step gedan barai, zen kustu dachi, then slide back cat stance, middle block, same hand. ni, step through chudan tsuki, jodan tsuki, same hand. They went through the whole kata that way. For fun, you could tell them you want them to do taikyoco ichi, ni san, and not tell them how. Just sit back and watch there wheels turning in their head. The first person that figures it out, should teach the rest of the class
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Post by powerof0ne on Dec 6, 2011 17:44:16 GMT -5
Not a bad idea, reminds me of "kihon kata" that I used to do in hayashi ha shito ryu kai, years ago. I just remember the first two are identical to taikyoku sono ichi and ni...the third is just with a uchi uke...then the fourth is gedan barai and uchi uke with the same hand...with the fifth being a shuto uke, mae geri and tep to zenkutsu dachi and chudan tsuki. Not shuto MAWASHI uke which I don't remember ever doing in shito ryu, BTW (I love shuto mawashi!). Osu!
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evergrey
Member
Get over yourself, mate.
Posts: 854
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Post by evergrey on Dec 7, 2011 2:55:50 GMT -5
Honestly, Sensei Dunn didn't see a reason for them at all. The first kata he taught me was Pinan 1. I don't really see a reason for three either.
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Post by powerof0ne on Dec 7, 2011 3:24:48 GMT -5
Taikyoku were taught as introductory kata....just like the Pinan were too The Pinan/Heian were Kosokun/Kanku broken up, more or less. This was when Te was introduced to students...I mean grade school students when they had Te instructors in Okinawa teaching...before Te was called KaraTe . I believe the Pinan came before the Taikyoku, too! Later on in some Okinawan styles was even a "Pinan Dai" kata..."The Great Pinan," which is all the Pinan in one big kata . Going from easiest to hardest, so depending on the style, it could be pinan ni (nidan) or sono ichi (shodan) first (some styles invert it, switch the name aruond or even teach ni first!) Osu!
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evergrey
Member
Get over yourself, mate.
Posts: 854
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Post by evergrey on Dec 10, 2011 15:58:50 GMT -5
When Sensei Dunn started training, they weren't even using the Taikyoku. They just started with Pinan 1. It got changed in our lineage around, eh, the very late 70s or early 80s I guess. So he didn't bother to teach them to me. Actually, come to think of it, he didn't even know them, hah! I ended up teaching them to him and another instructor who had also been away a long time.
I noticed something about that too... these nidans I was teaching were a lot more laid back about a white belt (at the time) teaching them something than the green belts were, haha!
OSU
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Post by powerof0ne on Dec 10, 2011 21:25:05 GMT -5
When Sensei Dunn started training, they weren't even using the Taikyoku. They just started with Pinan 1. It got changed in our lineage around, eh, the very late 70s or early 80s I guess. So he didn't bother to teach them to me. Actually, come to think of it, he didn't even know them, hah! I ended up teaching them to him and another instructor who had also been away a long time. I noticed something about that too... these nidans I was teaching were a lot more laid back about a white belt (at the time) teaching them something than the green belts were, haha! OSU Weird, because Taikyoku were definitely in Kyokushin at a very early stage, since the Pinan were in Kyokushin. The Taikyoku were introduced originally in Shotokan by Funakoshi to help simplify Pinan since the same embusen is used as the first Pinan. The Pinan, I believe were introduced by Itosu...so yes, the Pinan were done before shotokan existed...but one could argue the taikyoku weren't necessarily around before Shotokan..but before Kyokushin, yes. Goju Kai, Shito Ryu (Juno no or Kihon kata depending on type), and even GKR have versions of the Taikyoku...hilariously, GKR spells it like Taigyoku . My apologies to those that get scammed into investing time and money into GKR... Osu!
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evergrey
Member
Get over yourself, mate.
Posts: 854
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Post by evergrey on Dec 11, 2011 5:00:01 GMT -5
Haha, well my lineage has been declared weird by many, so who knows. I don't know why Don Buck did a number of the things he did... like require nidans to learn a Kung Fu form for some reasons. But all of that kind of stuff has been phased out, and we're closer to "standard" now than we were back then, it seems.
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