evergrey
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Get over yourself, mate.
Posts: 854
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Post by evergrey on Dec 9, 2011 5:02:45 GMT -5
OSU! Does anyone actually know for a fact why Sosai changed the way we sit in seiza from this: To this? And if you do not know why for a fact, can you tell me what your theory is? But please let me know if it is just a theory. I'm really curious, and thanks! OSU!
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Post by powerof0ne on Dec 9, 2011 13:24:53 GMT -5
It's the way we rei from seiza too...you lay your hands flat almost like doing a kanku on the floor and your head in the middle, traditionally. My theory was he changed this just to be "different," I brought this up to Cameron Quinn a few years ago and he thought that maybe the case too . When I first learned it I thought it was sort of odd because I knew from shito and goju ryu that the way I did seiza was the same way you did it in Japanese culture (if you were to ever be in a setting where you actually are sitting in seiza Osu!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2011 14:29:33 GMT -5
For what it's worth, since Day One in Kyokushin I was always told for some reason or another we never put a flat hand on the ground for seiza and rei. I'm not sure as to the reasoning, but I imagine that might be a part of the change.
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Post by powerof0ne on Dec 9, 2011 14:42:34 GMT -5
In some styles/orgs they will even take it this far
In the goju and shito ryu that I did we never did this. I don't remember seeing any of the Japanese karateka do this at the tournaments and seminars I was at, neither...not even Soke Hayashi. Osu!
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GJEC
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LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
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Post by GJEC on Dec 9, 2011 16:39:55 GMT -5
Yet another example of Westerners trying to be more Japanese than the Japanese. Meanwhile, of course, in the home country things have moved on.
Love the carefully weathered belt as well ...
Gary
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Post by powerof0ne on Dec 9, 2011 18:23:50 GMT -5
Yet another example of Westerners trying to be more Japanese than the Japanese. Meanwhile, of course, in the home country things have moved on. Love the carefully weathered belt as well ... Gary Exactly The older and more I train, the sillier I find it when people seem to care about ceremonial stuff that doesn't even have to do with their own culture. Why not try to train to get in better shape, train to punch and kick harder? The stuff that really counts, not focusing so much on the ceremonial customs. Someone looking me in the eye, and giving me a firm hand shake, or just a loud "Osu!" is all I need. In all honesty when in another country or training with those from another country I'd rather learn real customs in different cultures because that's more valuable to me then learning some antiquated wannabe Samurai way to conduct myself. Always helps open up a few doors when I meet somebody new and can greet them in their native tongue, and follow their customs To me, that is much more valuable then learning some odd Japanese custom that normal Japanese people today don't even do today. Osu!
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Post by gotapex on Dec 9, 2011 18:44:53 GMT -5
In some styles/orgs they will even take it this far In the goju and shito ryu that I did we never did this. I don't remember seeing any of the Japanese karateka do this at the tournaments and seminars I was at, neither...not even Soke Hayashi. Osu! I believe this was the old style (knee comes forward instead of foot moving back). From what I understand, this was from having a sword at your hip. It's awkward, angle wise, to step back and sink down because the sword gets in the way. Knee foward, and the sword simply rests behind/beside you. With unarmed combat, this was unnecessary. Also became unnecessary with the change to placing sword at your left (kendo). Anyhow, this is how it was explained to me.
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Post by powerof0ne on Dec 9, 2011 21:19:06 GMT -5
It is old style...I believe it's still done in the sword arts (kenjutsu, iaido, and even kendo). However, Karate doesn't come from the sword arts (I don't care who tells you it does) and no Japanese people in normal day to day activity sit in seiza like that. Why I personally feel it's silly to do in karate. I'd rather focus on training so I can punch and kick harder . I train because I like karate, and I try to become better at it...to me, karate isn't about how I do seiza, rei, etc. Osu!
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GJEC
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LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
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Post by GJEC on Dec 10, 2011 1:40:37 GMT -5
Someone looking me in the eye, and giving me a firm hand shake, or just a loud "Osu!" is all I need. That's exactly what we do now. Gary
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Post by powerof0ne on Dec 10, 2011 5:09:37 GMT -5
Someone looking me in the eye, and giving me a firm hand shake, or just a loud "Osu!" is all I need. That's exactly what we do now. Gary I like that approach a lot, but I wonder if many won't like it because they want some "exotic" ceremonial secret handshake or something ? Osu!
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GJEC
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LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
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Post by GJEC on Dec 10, 2011 11:02:17 GMT -5
Maybe
I sometimes wonder if - years ago - honest instructors started using the term karate-do as they realised the tail was wagging the dog. The stylistic requirements and ritual had gone over the top.
It's no accident that the strongest clubs I've trained in just got on with the job.
Gary
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evergrey
Member
Get over yourself, mate.
Posts: 854
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Post by evergrey on Dec 10, 2011 15:56:15 GMT -5
Well, we do have our start and end protocol, but that usually takes just long enough for everyone to line up, and bow three times. Then class starts, or is dismissed. Occasionally at line-up one of the instructors has a big of advice about training to give, often about protecting onsesself. I have only seen seiza at the start of the brown belt sanchin test when they are taking their gi tops off, and when someone's late for class, heh. Oh I think once the highest ranking belt sat in it for a bit at ranking, but then she switched back to cross-legged. We do have some high protocol. Ya know, bow to any black belt the first time you see them, once you catch their eye. Ask before you pass in front of a black belt (most of them get sick of this one really fast, lol, so when people are coming they'll move, or start making a "just go on by" gesture, heh!) bow when you enter the dojo, bow on and off the mat, bow before and after kata at a test, bow into and out of the ring, bow before and after kumite. That's about it. After a short while bowing just feels natural. *shrug* for me now the struggle is not bowing when entering other buildings, lol, and I will often unthinkingly say "OSU" outside of class.
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Post by senshido on Dec 12, 2011 8:00:23 GMT -5
I very rarely (if ever these days) bow in at the start of a class, and quite often just do a single standing bow at the end... The juniors sometimes ask for "A Japanese finish" so I sometimes go through the full ending
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2011 17:32:54 GMT -5
Our beginning is usually pretty informal, as since we only have a few people working out we typically just warm up individually then when we're ready to go either do a standing bow or just hop right into it. My instructor is trying to do the formal ending more and making me lead the "class" (i.e. the other one or two guys that show up) in the dojo kun and formalities.
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Post by kyofighter on Feb 20, 2012 10:32:32 GMT -5
I think Sosai just changed the way of seating and saluting eachother in seiza and in fudo dachi because he felt is more appropiate to the style. We look stronger and meaner with the fist on our thighs followed by a strong osu when we salute, it's like we are ready to fight anytime ! I think the kyokushin salute, the way of showing respect is different from other styles because we fight full contact and we have to show no fear and stuff. This is why we bow , holding a fist with a loud osu - it's like : here I am , it's nice to see you , I respect you, but don't #%^* with me !
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