Grades - recognition and acceptance

[blacktiger]

All

What is your criteria for Outside Grades in your Dojo's

If someone from another School with either Kyu or Dan Grade level to train with you as they've moved into your area or just transfering styles; do you recognise their grade and have them start at say 5th Kyu or 1st Dan and then allow them to train upto the next level OR do you have everyone come in as Whitebelts regardless of previous experience etc.

As I'm independant (I would also need to get grade confirmed and added to my NGB's black belt register), I tend to accept and ackowledge any previous Dan Grades SO for example a Dan grade will grade in my School for Dan Grade but will have to learn my syllabus etc prior to their first grading. So if someone is a 2nd Dan, They will grade at 2nd Dan in my school. If a 6th Kyu or 2nd Kyu in another style (unless a knockdown style) Kyu Grades begin again at 9th Kyu (although the first 4 grades are advanced in 1 1/2months not 3 months - I don't double grade).

IF you would like to follow the same format but are tied to condiotions set by Honbu please state this also.

I believe that Enshin has an Orange Belt grade for Dan grades in other styles - but not too sure if this is just for Instructors or if it is for any Dan grade who transfers to Enshin, I'm sure Gary etc will confirm the criteria there.

[GJEC]

I'm happy for visitors to wear the grade they have in any other style/club.

If they like training with us and wish to grade in Enshin - either leaving their previous club or in parallel, I'd expect them to wear an Enshin gi and an orange belt (dan grades) or white belt (kyu grades).

Most are happy to do so, as to be honest what we do is so different to 'traditional' styles if they're realistic they don't want to be wearing black belts.

I've had the odd visitor that has loved the training but was unwilling to start again, feeling a high grade in whatever gives them a free pass but I don't want people like that. Nor does Kancho, I've sat in on European Branch Chief meetings where people of high rank have wanted to buy their way in and he just gave them a polite but definite NO.

Self-belief is good. Inflated self-regard is not.

Gary

[curlbroscience]

GJEC: I agree with you regarding Enshin and the theory being so different from any of the other 'traditional' styles. How would you treat a yudansha from Ashihara karate? The styles are of the same tree branch. Just curious.

Blacktiger: Along a similar tree branch, I think Karate is Karate. Goju Ryu, Shorin Ryu, Shotokan and Kyokushin are all from the same tree branch with differing views on certain aspects of Karate. Hard or Soft. Internal or external. Linear or Circular. It would be like a Muay Thai, BJJ or Judoka visiting a gym. Everyone would fall in to place during randori, rolling or padwork/kumite.

[GJEC]

Rod Ter Weijden (NZ) was from Ashihara but Kancho gave him an orange belt. Same with Anton Bodjagin (Russia) Both were very fit and skilful but the take home message was 'you've got to earn it here'.

This was one of the things that persuaded me to join Enshin originally. I was fed up of politics and had been offered a 5th dan through the post. Being told to put on an orange belt and earn it again was a bonus.

I've told people that before and they've laughed and thought it was stupid. I just saw a challenge

Gary

[powerof0ne]

Unfortunately, people get weird about rank. I'm taking up Kendo and Iaido; more because I've always wanted to do it since I can remember. I look forward to being a white belt, not knowing what I'm doing...with no pressure whatsoever! Starting all over and telling the instructors from the get-go I don't expect my karate and other martial art experience to help me much (also have kendoka friends that have told me stories about cocky karateka's expectations )

My rule when teaching is, if somebody wants to join, and eventually grade, they have to start from white belt if they come from a non-knockdown style. I usually will allow them to stay at their rank if they come from a knockdown style within reason. What I tell most people is, if they have good experience, I won't hold them back, it's possible for them to double grade, and so forth.

I lost a "Shotokan brown belt" and a shito ryu "black belt." The Shotokan brown belt asked me to my face and I told him what he does has similarities in some of the kihon but he didn't know many of the shotokan kata anymore, and he couldn't hang in knockdown kumite. He was a grown man, and a veteran, so I was a bit surprised he didn't understand. The shito ryu black belt's attitude was something along the lines of thinking he knew it all.

It's funny to me, because I don't expect me walk into a dojo, especially one that's a different style and wear a black belt I've earned.

In fact, I advised my former student Kat to wear her white belt when going to Gary's just to avoid any potential weirdness.

Years ago I took lessons at a kempo dojo that also taught krav maga & arnis (they had separate instructors). I didn't go into detail about my experience, after a couple of lessons, they asked me my rank and ended up hiring me to teach, insisting I wear my black belt. I'm still friends with the owner of that dojo and his son today. They didn't care what style you were, as long as you brought something to the table. I also didn't go in there writing down my rank, years of experience, etc.

My point is, if you're really a black belt, it's usually pretty obvious in your actions.

[GJEC]

I asked Kat to wear her normal belt. If we get visitors I want my students to know if they have previous experience.

But it's a funny thing, rank. Years ago a black belt in any club had been through a fairly tough apprenticeship. Not so today, sadly.

Gary

[meguro]

When I practiced kendo, I could not tell what rank I was. There is no belt and the hakama has useful ties that wrapped around your waist. Rank was determined by how close you were to the head of the line in the line-up. The dojo was full of Japanese expats, mostly businessmen and their families. I kept my mouth shut and followed what everybody else was doing. After a couple years, I asked what rank I was. 2 kyu, the instructor told me. My Japanese was non existent at that point (not that it has improved much in the years since) so maybe I participated in tests I did not know about. It seemed to me that I moved up the line in step with my ability to "spar".

When I joined a knockdown karate dojo, the head instructor held on to my arm after we exchanged handshakes at the end of my first class. "You trained before and you're no beginner,"he stated. Not a question, but a question just the same. "Yes and yes," I replied hesitantly. He asked me what I studied (TKD) and my rank. Then he asked my why I had not requested to keep my rank. The line was bottle necking and I was a little nervous about the attention I had drawn, bearing in mind that the nail that sticks up gets hammered down. I just shrugged my shoulders. "Starting from beginning, very good," he filled in. He smiled, clapped me on the shoulders and sent me on my way. World Oyama Karate had a huge footprint in NYC at that time, and that was my very short conversation with the big man.

No matter what's around your waist, the people that matter will know.

[blacktiger]

One reason for my view is the statement by a famous KarateKa (who I just happened to forget their name)
"A Mudansha needs to be told what is required; a Yudansha should already know what is required"

I thank everyone for their views and I agree that if you are a Dan grade in Karate, you should begin at the beginning if you begin Judo or Jujitsu etc. But if the styles are virtually Identical then surely.....

For Example a Yundansha in IKO1 surely if they are moving to IKO3 etc that they don't have to begin again etc.

Enshin DOES recognise Dan grades as the orange belt is not in the grading syllabus except for Dan grades so anyone will automatically know that they were previously a Dan grade in another style.

For me as I have used every colour in my syllabus and I know what is required for each grade I think to myself I will know when someone is ready to grade for the required level. Although there are some individuals that aren't at the levels "gained". So we are saying then, by beginning again, that someone that graded to Dan grade in YOUR school isn't as good as someone grading to the same level in another school?

Putting on a White belt is a humbling experience I carry my original White belt in my bag to remind me of my beginnings. For me we don't do Dan Bars (which are so important to others) so the black belt line sorts itself out into its own format anyway.

[GJEC]

Hmmm

In truth the hardest thing I've found is de-training people and removing habits that have already been trained in. For some that might include a certain over-confidence but a few trips to the floor usually act as a good teacher.

My own experience was arriving as a 4th dan and former KD champion, then sparring with a yellow belt uchi deshi (Yato sensei) and meeting 'Mr Mat' half a dozen times.

Not hard to be humble when that happens. In a KD tournament I'd have smashed him to bits but with grabbing and throwing I was the apprentice and he the craftsman.

So forget about grades. If a stonemason wants to be a carpenter he has certain advantages - an eye for detail and appreciation of construction work for example. But the tools are different so if he wants to learn quickly he listens to his mentor and doesn't bleat on about 'In stonemasonry I was a master craftsman' or 'In stonemasonry we did it this way'. The same applies here.

It's not the body that needs re-grading, it's usually the mind.

Gary

[Ros]

Jan 14, 2014 5:23:32 GMT -5 blacktiger said:

Putting on a White belt is a humbling experience I carry my original White belt in my bag to remind me of my beginnings.

Really, how funny! Might you be likely to forget them otherwise?

Personally, I really don't care what colour belt is around my waist, and I don't care what colour belt is around anyone else's waist either. I do appreciate that lots of people like to mark their progress with a test and belt (and this might be more important to keep kids motivated) but it isn't really important is it? If you are getting the training that you want, with the instructor that you want to be taught by and the fellow students you want to train with, then who cares what's holding your gi top together? If retaining a belt matters so much to a potential student that it would prevent them from joining the class, well, that's their loss isn't it?

In my limited experience of attending a few seminars, a black belt is absolutely no guarantee of anything at all other than either longevity or cash. As Meguro said, the people that matter will know.

[blacktiger]

Jan 14, 2014 8:54:41 GMT -5 Ros said:

Jan 14, 2014 5:23:32 GMT -5 blacktiger said:

Putting on a White belt is a humbling experience I carry my original White belt in my bag to remind me of my beginnings.

Really, how funny! Might you be likely to forget them otherwise?

Personally, I really don't care what colour belt is around my waist, and I don't care what colour belt is around anyone else's waist either. I do appreciate that lots of people like to mark their progress with a test and belt (and this might be more important to keep kids motivated) but it isn't really important is it? If you are getting the training that you want, with the instructor that you want to be taught by and the fellow students you want to train with, then who cares what's holding your gi top together? If retaining a belt matters so much to a potential student that it would prevent them from joining the class, well, that's their loss isn't it?

In my limited experience of attending a few seminars, a black belt is absolutely no guarantee of anything at all other than either longevity or cash. As Meguro said, the people that matter will know.

Ros, Do you have Dan Bars on your belt? If you do then surely it does matter to you what belt is holding your Gi top together? You can't say that a belt doesn't matter then proudly adorn 4,5,6+ Dan Bars on your belt etc.

I agree about the belt around the waist idea, hence why no Dan Bars in my School. And why I've been seen by my students wearing various colour belts within my system including a White Belt. I have my Junior 1st kyus at present wearing white belts instead of their Brown belts to show them that the belt doesn't make them they make the belt.

[GJEC]

I wonder if such a thing just confuses the students? On the one hand 'make progress through the belt system' yet on the other 'the belt system is irrelevant'.

Most of the kd styles use a few colours to give short term goals etc, then once the apprenticeship is over some bars to denote experience.

No inflated ego's if used properly. As to the bars question if that's the norm for the style so be it. A gi with badges and the normal belt should not be seen as regalia. It's just workwear and should be sweaty.

Gary

BTW Ros is a brown belt. A good one.

[jellyfish292001]

if people have done Kyokushin or similar I ask them to keep their belt but they cannot grade again until I am satisfied that they can meet the same standard as my other students.

I value my black belt greatly, it does not define me or make me better than anyone else but I worked damn hard for it and considering most people who knew me thought I'd last 2 weeks of training I am proud of my belt.
It is not so much for what other people perceive as a result of it but more for the joy I feel when I put it on.

[evergrey]

Heh, seems like everyone in my dojo resists testing for more gold bars, and has to be ambushed by the instructors to test. Over-humble, maybe? Some of them just love to fight, so I don't think it's fear of the kumite...

There is one student in my dojo who was told to keep her rank from some other style, some really obscure one. It's a brown belt with a few stripes on it, though one has fallen off. She stands ahead of me in line, but looks to me for guidance. I'm currently teaching her Sanchin kata.

She has very little confidence and low self esteem, and is 14 years old. Maybe she was told to keep her rank because someone thought it would give her confidence?

To me it's pretty surprising, since that isn't normally a thing that happens here. Not really for me to question. I'll admit, it grates a bit on the ol' ego, but I ought to be leaving that at home anyway.

When someone from Kyokushin (probably related knockdown, too) comes to visit, they keep their rank. If they join us, and they are from Kyokushin, they keep their rank, unless it is obvious they shouldn't have it, I suppose. Sometimes someone will move here from, say, Japan, and sneak by with a white belt, just saying "OSU" all the time and not mentioning their past training, but they usually find themselves on the testing fast track anyway, because it is always obvious, especially if they are, say, IKO1 or IKO2. An instructor will end up asking the right questions.

We had one guy who joined us from IKO2. He swore up and down that he was a white belt over in Japan, though he had trained for years. I'm still pretty suspicious about that! Heh. He beat a number of people higher rank than him in the big World Oyama tournament in San Francisco. He got like, 2nd or 3rd, I don't remember which.

He left the cup at the dojo with us. When he won it, he said, "this is for our dojo!" He clearly meant it. He's back in Japan now, his student days in California over, but the cup's still in the locker room on the shelf.

I admire his humility and community spirit, really. Great karateka. I miss him!

I'm rambling and I'm not sure the point of any of this, hah!

[powerof0ne]

I had a nagging suspicion you might ask her too, but I still thought it was good manners for her not to expect to wear it. I actually would have her and other students use "modified" Enshin rules for kumite at times. Modified, because 99% of the time, we did kumite on hard flooring. So this meant more to set up for knees, because I like to knee a lot.

I suppose the reason why I definitely wouldn't let a non-knockdown stylist come in and where a black belt is because the "kroddy" around where I live is horrible. There is one dojo I'm familiar with, where their standards of kihon and kata are good...but they RARELY ever spar. The rest of the dojo are crap. It's funny because my Dad was a dohai of the good dojo's sensei, and senpai to the "Judan" that has a dojo 2 minutes from where I live.

Anyhow, enough before I start to ramble.
Osu!

Jan 14, 2014 3:04:54 GMT -5 GJEC said:

I asked Kat to wear her normal belt. If we get visitors I want my students to know if they have previous experience.

But it's a funny thing, rank. Years ago a black belt in any club had been through a fairly tough apprenticeship. Not so today, sadly.

Gary

I come from a type of background and experience, where I expect somebody that's a black belt to be able to hang with other black belts.

When I grade somebody, of course I look at the kihon, kata, renraku,etc...but at least half of what I'm looking at is their kumite ability.