|
Post by senshido on Dec 2, 2015 6:44:44 GMT -5
I have always found it easier to block face punches than anything else.... if I see something coming at my face my natural reaction is to move or block or swat it away, as its coming at your face (where your eyes are and as long as they are open )I think that makes it easier.
|
|
|
Post by Tay on Dec 2, 2015 7:58:55 GMT -5
And after all, if boxers always have all the cards they'd clean up in MMA. But they don't, they often lose badly. I agree with most of your posts in this thread Gary but just on this I would tend to disagree. A bit off topic but anyway: MMA as you know is a multi discipline sport and you cannot go far if you're one dimensional be it just boxing or just wrestling for instance. You have to be well-rounded. However boxing has proven to be one of the most important and key elements in being successful in MMA, alongside grappling. If we talk about specific examples: -A few days ago Holy Holm has been able to put a proper beating on Ronda Rousey and take the belt from her. That was due to her far superior boxing (world class level) + her take-down defence. Yes she finished with an impressive head kick, but her punches had already done the job (+ blocking and dodging all the punches Ronda tried to throw) -Conor McGregor has cleared out the FeatherWeight division, has the interim belt and is fighting Jose Aldo in a couple of weeks. He's quite well rounded but his base his boxing. If you look at his fights and how he won, it's mostly due to superior boxing. He has 18 MMA wins on his record and 15 of those are by KO/TKO with punches. -The only guy who ever managed to have Jon Jones in trouble and who could easily have won the decision and the belt from him is Alexander Gustafsson. How did he do that? Purely with his boxing skills. He's also originally a boxer. -Anderson Silva has been a UFC legend and a lot of people considered him the best MMA fighter of all times. If you look at his skillset: crazy striking game with a good mix of kicks and punches, and also a pretty good takedown defence and ground game. His boxing skills and in particular his defence, dodging and head movement is just insane to watch and is one of the biggest assets in his arsenal. I could list a ton of other examples. Also it seems that in the street (from the fights I've seen) that boxing is probably one if not the most useful fight sport for self defence.
|
|
|
Post by Tay on Dec 2, 2015 8:08:13 GMT -5
If knockdown is not for self defence, then my kyokushin training days will be over soon. Will definitely switch to some grappling art! No knockdown tournaments at my age, and clicker/kata are fine but not really my cup of tea. Kyokushin and Knockdown are very good for self defence, but maybe not the best option that exists if your only objective is self defence. The thing is you develop so many other skills and qualities with Kyokushin on top of having very good tools for self defence (the osu attitude, strong body and mind, discipline and respect, etc.), that it's definitely worth doing. If your only interest is self defence and you don't care about the rest, then maybe you're better off just doing some art that's entirely based around self defence instead of also sport and tradition (for example krav maga, systema, etc.).
|
|
|
Post by Tay on Dec 2, 2015 8:32:05 GMT -5
Tools or preparation? The way I see it, Rousey has done phenomenally well for a Judoka up until now. Holm had the advantage of studying Rousey, and credit to her, had the skills to exploit Rousey's weakness. If Rousey decides to come back/re-match, she'll have to fill that hole in her game. Can she/will she? On striking before grappling, this isn't aikido where your partner gives you his arm. Definitely tools more than preparation. Rousey had never faced a decent striker and her striking has always been suspect. It was only a matter of time until the UFC made her fight a decent striker with good takedown defence that would expose her big weakness in striking. Yes studying and preparing is important, but what really made Holm win the fight was that her striking was just on a whole different level to Ronda's. Of course the fact she came in with a good strategy and managed to defend the grappling exchanges was key too. It's going to take Rousey years to even come close to Holm's level of striking. She's not just going to simply "fill" that hole. Her best bet would be to prepare a good gameplan to avoid taking too much damage in the striking department instead of just rushing forward with no defence, take her time and only go for the grappling exchange when there's a real opportunity.
|
|
|
Post by meguro on Dec 2, 2015 9:16:43 GMT -5
It's going to take Rousey years to even come close to Holm's level of striking. She's not just going to simply "fill" that hole. Her best bet would be to prepare a good gameplan to avoid taking too much damage in the striking department instead of just rushing forward with no defence, take her time and only go for the grappling exchange when there's a real opportunity. Rousey has reached that fork in the road. If the film roles are still there, she should take them. Who knows? Maybe she'll get a better coach and surprise us.
|
|
azam
Member
Posts: 79
|
Post by azam on Dec 3, 2015 8:31:09 GMT -5
If knockdown is not for self defence, then my kyokushin training days will be over soon. Will definitely switch to some grappling art! No knockdown tournaments at my age, and clicker/kata are fine but not really my cup of tea. Kyokushin and Knockdown are very good for self defence, but maybe not the best option that exists if your only objective is self defence. The thing is you develop so many other skills and qualities with Kyokushin on top of having very good tools for self defence (the osu attitude, strong body and mind, discipline and respect, etc.), that it's definitely worth doing. If your only interest is self defence and you don't care about the rest, then maybe you're better off just doing some art that's entirely based around self defence instead of also sport and tradition (for example krav maga, systema, etc.). Deja Vu - this reminds me of our last back & forth lol.
|
|
residentrenzo
Member
The only way to overcome fear is through it, not around it.
Posts: 83
|
Post by residentrenzo on Dec 3, 2015 12:43:31 GMT -5
Mmmm... can't remember now... What was it? Anyway, liked your earlier post. OSU!
|
|
residentrenzo
Member
The only way to overcome fear is through it, not around it.
Posts: 83
|
Post by residentrenzo on Dec 3, 2015 12:51:49 GMT -5
Thanks for the offer, but regrettably, can't do it - I live in South America Will have to search around and see what's available. OSU!
|
|
GJEC
Member
LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
Posts: 3,218
|
Post by GJEC on Dec 3, 2015 15:51:15 GMT -5
This face punching topic comes up over and over on different threads on different forums.
I can understand why but wonder if people should research what they are getting into before joining and investing time. If someone asks me purely for self defence I point them towards the gym owner who has vastly more 'hands on' than me. I'd hope if someone asks him for karate he points them to me.
I wonder if soccer players go on soccer forums and ask why they don't pick the ball up ...
If they did they'd just say, "Play rugby!"
Gary
|
|
residentrenzo
Member
The only way to overcome fear is through it, not around it.
Posts: 83
|
Post by residentrenzo on Dec 3, 2015 21:56:40 GMT -5
This face punching topic comes up over and over on different threads on different forums. I can understand why but wonder if people should research what they are getting into before joining and investing time. If someone asks me purely for self defence I point them towards the gym owner who has vastly more 'hands on' than me. I'd hope if someone asks him for karate he points them to me. I wonder if soccer players go on soccer forums and ask why they don't pick the ball up ... If they did they'd just say, "Play rugby!" Gary OSU! As a beginner you get recruited without having much idea of what you're getting into because a small dojo always needs more people kinda hard to expect a person who does not know much about MA beforehand to understand the pros and cons of each MA. When I started kyokushin I was asked the standard question, "Why do you want to do karate?" My answer was more or less "I'm interested in doing something that will push me physically and mentally, and develop self-defence skills". Always insisted on that SD part. So I was told Kyokushin is great for SD, and would not only toughen me up, it would give training discipline. Which is true. So then I believed kyokushin was the toughest karate I could find. Just to be clear, I don't regret doing kyokushin. Obviuosuly there are solid benefits. Reading books and forums on this topic I've noticed many old school kyokushin people commenting on what Azam wrote before: I think Monty & Azam hit the spot. If I can do an offshot that would cover basic SD needs then I don't think I'd quit knockdown karate. Gary, If I were at your gym, I'd try and train both sides BTW, If we had Enshin karate dojos here, I'd have switched to that long ago. I really like their sabaki and kata concepts. Plus their attack/takedown techniques look really useful. OSU!
|
|
residentrenzo
Member
The only way to overcome fear is through it, not around it.
Posts: 83
|
Post by residentrenzo on Dec 3, 2015 22:03:24 GMT -5
I have always found it easier to block face punches than anything else.... if I see something coming at my face my natural reaction is to move or block or swat it away, as its coming at your face (where your eyes are and as long as they are open )I think that makes it easier. The British (or "Brits" as we are referred to, dare I say, with affection!) are known for our sense of humour. Although there are regional differences - whether in a Scouse (Liverpool), Geordie (Newcastle), Cockney (London) or Scottish, Irish or a Welsh accent,- our humour is mostly based on irony or sarcasm.-"Understanding the Brits: Irony, Understatement and a Good Pint"
|
|
|
Post by slaine on Dec 4, 2015 2:58:51 GMT -5
The British (or "Brits" as we are referred to, dare I say, with affection!) are known for our sense of humour. Although there are regional differences - whether in a Scouse (Liverpool), Geordie (Newcastle), Cockney (London) or Scottish, Irish or a Welsh accent,- our humour is mostly based on irony or sarcasm. [/i] -"Understanding the Brits: Irony, Understatement and a Good Pint" [/quote] I hope that was part of the Sarcasm referring to Scots , Irish and Welsh as Brits .
|
|
|
Post by powerof0ne on Dec 5, 2015 13:08:52 GMT -5
As somebody that's competed with no face punches, WKF rules with controlled face punches scoring an "ippon," Muay Thai and Kickboxing rules I'll give my own opinion.
For me, I'm better at whatever I have been focusing on in sparring and pad work with for the last 1-2 months leading up to a match/fight.
I once did a knockdown tournament but only focused on knockdown kumite for 1-2 weeks which in hindsight was stupid. I was focusing more on K-1 rules for many months leading up to it.
Everybody is different...real life is a lot different than competition. I've been in real life situations and my mindset is to fight very dirty and end the conflict as quickly as possible in a very painful way.
As Meguro first said, it depends what you want to get out of it. What is your current reason for training? Osu!
|
|
|
Post by meguro on Dec 6, 2015 9:06:22 GMT -5
On product evolution, I am reminded of the old Henry Ford saying, "you can have any color you like, as long as it's black." You all know my feeling on tradition. Anyway, I think karate fora are a pretty good diagnostic tools; indicators of the things clients/students might be interested in. Karate, IMO, is a product with huge potential for improvement. It would be silly not to try. (The potential for boxing, in contrast, is limited; it will always be about punching with gloves in a ring.)
So, to the argument that there is no face punching in knockdown I ask, "why not?" Most of the regular participants in this forum are captains of their own figurative ships so it is conceivable that the technique could be explored experimentally. I get Gary's sport car vs off road vehicle analogy, I really do. On the other hand, I do appreciate the business opportunity of fulfilling the customer's needs, and the opportunity lost when somebody else fills that need. This is not to say, be all things to all people- it's impossible. But face punching? We can work something out, surely.
|
|
GJEC
Member
LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
Posts: 3,218
|
Post by GJEC on Dec 6, 2015 13:22:26 GMT -5
They already have meguro. It's called Thai boxing. Or kickboxing. Or K1.
Many people do jobs where brain damage and a career path are mutually exclusive, or work in customer facing roles where cuts and bruises are not the company uniform.
I personally think the knockdown and particularly the Sabaki challenge rules are dead right. A challenge without silly risks. Sure, kicks come in heavy but most recipients recover and walk off the mat.
I fully understand that some want "reality" but ANY system with rules is obviously not real. In the pursuit of SP skills I have looked at the costs / benefits of the dark side. I was not impressed enough to change.
Gary
|
|