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Post by meguro on Dec 6, 2015 18:07:53 GMT -5
I agree, knockdown and the Sabaki challenge, are safe means to test one's self. This is where the "working something out" clause kicks in, Gary. I think of it like safe driving. I don't purposely crash to improve my chances at surviving crashes, nor do I eschew driving altogether. We ought to be inventive enough to train realistically, eg. introduce more practical guards, distance, and movement (head movements, combinations, footwork), focus pad drills, etc. The cost would be less time for tournament rules based training in exchange for rules of the street based fighting. . .Wait a minute. There are no rules on the street. Never mind. I'm, sorry I brought it up.
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Post by Karate48 on Aug 18, 2016 15:41:22 GMT -5
No face punch rules are bad because they promote poor distance and timing for real fighting. They work in a tournament setting. I know we all train that way at times but other training must take place to make sure timing and speed and distance is correct.
Sabaki challenge uses grabbing of the GI in their rules. At that distance you either punch to the face or go to the ground if you are going to grab each other. So why just grab and pull in your opponents. That would not wash in a real street fight. In a tournament it works for Sabaki fighter because that's how they train everyday.
So it's a goo test of spirit and strength.
Point system karate practices punching to the face but they can't take a punch because they play tag.
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on Aug 20, 2016 12:38:51 GMT -5
No face punch rules are bad because they promote poor distance and timing for real fighting. They work in a tournament setting. I know we all train that way at times but other training must take place to make sure timing and speed and distance is correct. Sabaki challenge uses grabbing of the GI in their rules. At that distance you either punch to the face or go to the ground if you are going to grab each other. So why just grab and pull in your opponents. That would not wash in a real street fight. In a tournament it works for Sabaki fighter because that's how they train everyday. So it's a goo test of spirit and strength. Point system karate practices punching to the face but they can't take a punch because they play tag. OK ... So now you've told us we're all training wrong and what we do doesn't work. What would you do? Please quote all relevant 'real street fight experience' in your response. Gary
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Post by Karate48 on Aug 22, 2016 17:11:59 GMT -5
Well, I'm not sure if you are ALL training wrong. I'm guessing lots of people in here have figured out that knockdown rule distance isn't going to work in the street. YES everything works sometimes.
A good fighter can beat most non trained fighters. But it's the other 20% you have to be careful off.
So what would I do? I train for face punch. I train like I would have to fight. I don't train for tournament. Not anymore anyway. Not often.
The point is if someone always trains for a certain type of situation then they are going to be best at that situation.
Listing my fight resume would be pointless on an online forum.
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Post by Karate48 on Aug 22, 2016 17:21:29 GMT -5
Well, I'm not sure if you are ALL training wrong. I'm guessing lots of people in here have figured out that knockdown rule distance isn't going to work in the street. YES everything works sometimes. A good fighter can beat most non trained fighters. But it's the other 20% you have to be careful off. So what would I do? I train for face punch. I train like I would have to fight. I don't train for tournament. Not anymore anyway. Not often. The point is if someone always trains for a certain type of situation then they are going to be best at that situation. Listing my fight resume would be pointless on an online forum. But I can tell you for sure if someone tries to grab my shirt in the middle of a street fight as they grab a GI in an Enshin or Ashihara tournament, they with pay dearly for it. But they can have my torn shirt.
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on Aug 23, 2016 3:57:43 GMT -5
In that case I'll just remind you of the name of this forum. Knockdown fighters.
Knockdown fighting is a rule system. It was devised to answer the need of those who want to challenge themselves, push their fitness and skill levels up then see if they can perform under pressure.
As far as I'm aware (and I was there at the first one in the UK) no one ever claimed it was the best system for illegal or stupid street fighting.
Having said that, fitness, skill and impact never go out of style and I have been competent when I have had to drop someone, wherever it happened.
So back on task. Knockdown has benefits beyond the street. Let's celebrate those and add constructive posts that encourage youngsters. NOT just trot out the same tired stuff about what works in the street.
Gary
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Post by meguro on Aug 23, 2016 5:10:00 GMT -5
Whoever said that you can't have your cake and eat it too was a lousy problem solver. Get two cakes, duh! Which brings us to the topic of this thread. Do both. For sport, and prolonged mental acuity, knockdown is the better path. For the street. . . well I mentioned my plan for the overhand right and head butts for beginners class.
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Post by Karate48 on Aug 23, 2016 12:20:21 GMT -5
It's true that one reason for knockdown karate is to test ourselves. I agree.
But the original Karate/ martial arts was not to test ourselves. Testing ourselves is only one aspect of it.
If self improvement is another aspect we should train in a way that is realistic as well. At least most of the time because at the end of the day karate is used for self defense and is known to be a fighting art.
How many so called black belts do you know that can't hold their own? There is a reason why karate is not very popular anymore.
Full contact fighter know what karate can do but as long as it is watered down for sport (as it is more and more) it will no longer be a realistic form of fighting and that should not be acceptable for any Karateka.
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on Aug 23, 2016 13:54:19 GMT -5
It's absolutely impossible to tell another karate ka what karate is, as each person has a different reason for training.
But we do know what knockdown is. It has rules. It's a sport.
It just makes me laugh when people evaluate sport's effectiveness for self defence.
What's next, baseball is more effective than rounders?
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Post by Karate48 on Aug 23, 2016 16:37:45 GMT -5
So are you saying that because of the rules knockdown karate gets a pass as not being used as self defense?
It is Karate right? People are kicking and punching each other.
They goal is to stop the opponent in knockdown full contact karate, right?
Why train in something it won't won't work in a real situation?
We call that dancing.
If I'm a black belt training in knockdown karate (of any style) walking down the street and someone wants to hurt me and I can't win or at least survive the fight because the RULES of knockdown are different then I'm doing something wrong.
No matter what a personal individual reason is for starting karate at the end of the day they should be able to walk the earth knowing that they are capable of defending themselves against most if not all attackers at least to get away.
If all you train for is knockdown rules and tournament then you are training in a false reality. If someone off the street comes in and says I want to learn to defend myself do you tell them it's a matter of perception and knockdown rules are not meant to be used that way?
Do you tell them Enshin is really just a tournament system? Based on what your perception if you are telling them it's more than just a tournament system then you are not being honest with them because most people who start karate couldn't care less about All Japan tournaments.
They want to learn to defend themselves and perhaps spiritual meaning of karate.
I believe you are from England. When you go to a football game and some crazy fan attacks you do stop and ask them to do knockdown rules?
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Post by Ros on Aug 24, 2016 2:37:29 GMT -5
So are you saying that because of the rules knockdown karate gets a pass as not being used as self defense? It is Karate right? People are kicking and punching each other. They goal is to stop the opponent in knockdown full contact karate, right? Why train in something it won't won't work in a real situation? We call that dancing. If I'm a black belt training in knockdown karate (of any style) walking down the street and someone wants to hurt me and I can't win or at least survive the fight because the RULES of knockdown are different then I'm doing something wrong. No matter what a personal individual reason is for starting karate at the end of the day they should be able to walk the earth knowing that they are capable of defending themselves against most if not all attackers at least to get away. If all you train for is knockdown rules and tournament then you are training in a false reality. If someone off the street comes in and says I want to learn to defend myself do you tell them it's a matter of perception and knockdown rules are not meant to be used that way? Do you tell them Enshin is really just a tournament system? Based on what your perception if you are telling them it's more than just a tournament system then you are not being honest with them because most people who start karate couldn't care less about All Japan tournaments. They want to learn to defend themselves and perhaps spiritual meaning of karate. I believe you are from England. When you go to a football game and some crazy fan attacks you do stop and ask them to do knockdown rules? Hello, Karate48 and welcome to the forum. I think this particular argument has been had many times on many different platforms. What do you think self defense is? I think it's far more than being competent in any fighting art and the majority of it comes from firstly awareness and avoidance, secondly diffusion and de-escalation (God, I hate that word ) and somewhere, way down the line is having the mindset and ability to be able to put someone out of action so you can get away. So, when you are saying you do your training with your face punches for self-defense, how does that help with your situational awareness; when you have a proven competence at being able to grapple someone to the floor, how does that help with your ability to say "Yes, you're right mate, sorry" and walking away?; and apart from anything else, do you think a face punch is the best method for disabling someone who is attacking you? I don't, personally and think the ability to sprint faster than your attacker would be far more useful. Hey, this is just my opinion and I've never had a 'real street fight' but in all honesty, I imagine everyone here is bored with discussions of 'real street fights' - if that's why anyone trains in any martial art I think they are deluding themselves, especially as you're far more likely to be injured in training than by someone attacking you - but thanks for your contribution to the discussion.
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Post by meguro on Aug 24, 2016 12:09:37 GMT -5
I've come to peace with the no face punching rule. For one thing, a good friend of mine is a radiologist whose special interest is brain imaging. He can detect changes in the brains of kids who play soccer and head the ball. Now you've got veterans coming back with all sorts of brain trauma. Then I've seen plenty of dojo mates drop from kicks and punches to the jaw-makes for exciting videos but recovery for each individual, man I'd rather have my ribs broken (We've all been there, am I right? ) Then there's this The topic should be "No concealed carry in Kykushin good or bad?"
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on Aug 25, 2016 5:42:34 GMT -5
It's a game martial artists play to shoot themselves in the foot (pun intended)
Pessimists can't believe that the benefits are there, so they focus on the negatives.
No harm in that until they pour it all out on forums under the guise of being 'realistic'.
As a coach, I urge people to think before they post. We want to help people challenge themselves then test themselves, not walk around full of fear convinced by others that it will never work in a crisis.
I'm going to sound big headed here, but I have to say it's worked just fine for me.
Gary
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Post by arjukenkarate on Aug 27, 2016 6:11:56 GMT -5
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Post by meguro on Aug 28, 2016 6:14:49 GMT -5
I noticed the crossed Arnis sticks in your avatar, arjuken. Cool. Ever incorporate them in your sparring ( as if face punching weren't enough)?
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