Kata is bass ackwards

[meguro]

because the training of it focuses on form not function, and because the function is so little understood. Take a look at my new favorite vid. Function is the main concern. Form follows.

What karate technique do you see being put to a use you had not considered?

[MMX]

Good stuff. I see a lot of what we do at our Enshin dojo in there too.

[meguro]

Good to know, MMX. it is interesting how you can use your thigh as a fulcrum in kiba dachi, or your ass in kiba dachi to destroy a knee. Also, the manner of manipulating your opponent by pulling him off balance. There is just so much lost when you are only looking at one man fluttering his arms in the air and trying to discern meaning from it.

[MMX]

Well in Enshin we spend a lot more time on applications with partners,grabbing,throwing,disarming,etc. My Sensei was also ex-special forces so we learn some of that stuff too.

[GJEC]

Indeed it is ass backwards. But not all ...

Taikyoku sono ichi starts with "Turn left into zenkutsu dachi and perform a left gedan barai"

Shiro obi no kata starts with "Your opponent throws a straight right punch"

So in Enshin the opponent and attack is visualised from day one. Most styles/dojo teach the traditional kata movement sequence then add in the meanings afterwards to flesh it out.

A mistake IMNSHO. Form must follow function.

Gary

[meguro]

Taikyoku sono ichi, argh! No kata has ruined karate more.

The first move of taikyoku sono ichi, and many other kata, I believe, starts with the juji uke. Juji uke comprises three useful blocks against a punch to the face: outside to inside block to take an outside line; inside to outside block to take the center line; a pass and check to take the outside line. Any of these would be better than a jodan uke to deal with a jodan attack (another criminal misinterpretation of karate technique). So, some form of block taken from juji uke to deal with the frontal assault, some exchange of punches ensues, and finally your arm is cross grabbed. You deal with the cross grab (his right hand grabs your right) with a move off side into zenkutsu dachi gedan barai (a grip release technique). I never bought the idea that gedan barai was the best response to a front kick. For Taikyoku sono ni, the jodan uke would be a grip release technique against a parallel grab ( his left hand grabs your right).

Why grip release technique? Consider how we chamber, the position of the arms before retracting the arm (hikite), and the purpose of sweeping one arm along the arm being retracted. Form must follow function.

[meguro]

I saw a kata demonstration by a disabled karateka. My take, his instructors missed a great opportunity to teach technique that just might be useful to a person bound to a wheelchair. If there were a class of people who ought to know close-in fighting technique, the wheelchair bound are it, and what are kata but a collection of close-in fighting technique?! Instead, they taught him dance steps. Gedan barai chudan tsuki, turn, gedan barai chudan tsuki. Does anybody remember the final talent portion of Little Miss Sunshine? The one where the innocent little girl dances to a Rick James tune?

[kyokanrik]

Aug 16, 2014 9:15:37 GMT -5 meguro said:

I saw a kata demonstration by a disabled karateka. My take, his instructors missed a great opportunity to teach technique that just might be useful to a person bound to a wheelchair. If there were a class of people who ought to know close-in fighting technique, the wheelchair bound are it, and what are kata but a collection of close-in fighting technique?! Instead, they taught him dance steps. Gedan barai chudan tsuki, turn, gedan barai chudan tsuki. Does anybody remember the final talent portion of Little Miss Sunshine? The one where the innocent little girl dances to a Rick James tune?

Very good point and analogy(LMS talent comp). A missed opportunity indeed.

[meguro]

Here's a question that's been bugging me for years, guys and gals: what is jodan uke supposed to be teaching us? Are we really blocking a punch to our face, an ice pick attack or hammer blow? Are those the most likely things, we as unarmed folks, are going to be attacked with? And if so, is jodan uke the best thing for the job? No and no is what I'm thinking, and I suspect you feel the same way. So, what gives? Why do we do it?

[GJEC]

I regard it as simply a way to strengthen the existing flinch reflex that automatically raises arms to protect the face.

Against a fast punch or a hammer? Forget it!

Gary

[meguro]

You know how we do the jodan uke? Cross the forearms as if to ward off a vampire, palms facing you, then swipe upwards with the horizontal arm rotating the forearm so that the palm faces outward. The vertical forearm, hikite, meanwhile retracts towards the waist. That's a lot of detail, too much to block anything, even if you speed it up or abbreviate the movements.

[GJEC]

I see lots of basics as stylised moves that help build co ordination and reflexes, but not as practical moves.

Not all effort on them is wasted though ...

Real life rarely requires a technical clean and jerk, but we all like the power it develops.

Gary

[meguro]

Point well made, Gary. The clean and jerk reference nailed it.

Still, I think there is something more to the crossed arms. I'm contemplating a video response to illustrate that there's more to the jodan uke we know and love.

[meguro]

I can't wait until my audio visual skills are up to the task, so I'll wade right into my take on jodan uke as an arm-bar escape technique. Wait you lot, stop rolling your eyes for a moment because I'm going to tie hikite into the discussion. One of the big reasons you don't leave your arm out there, after throwing the punch, is so it doesn't get grabbed and used against you, as in a throw or an arm bar, like this one

Ignore for a moment that the video illustrates how a cop might takedown someone (compliance with authority arguments), and understand the basics about an arm bar (straight arm and a fulcrum).
Now, look at this, the suspect bends his arm to escape the arm bar.

See that trapped arm, that's the vertical bit of the jodan uke. Jodan uke defeats the arm bar in two ways: eliminates the straight arm; removes the fulcrum. Jodan uke improves on the simple arm bar escape by using the free hand to remove the fulcrum (opponent's hand) at your elbow. That's what that upward swiping motion is about, and not so much to stop an ice-pick attack. By twisting your arm so that your inner forearm faces outwards, your bring your triceps into play, which are better suited to pushing against resistance. If you pivot and directly face your opponent, he is further inhibited in applying the arm bar.

"That's a bit contrived," you are probably thinking. How common are arm bars? Let me just say that cops use them all the time, and so do a hell of a lot of other martial artists. So when you are doing ido geiko, and after the last punch you turn and block, think a moment why that block follows a straight punch. Is it really a block or a release technique? (Just to be consistent, I think gedan barai makes for a nifty wrist grab release)

[chakuriki]

I like where you are going with this one, Meguro. With the the convesation with Gary on the punch to the face thread, and it is my thought of the day, I think karate can be all things to all people. I happen to see the utility of kata, the self defense applications, etc...

The opening move of Taikyoku can also make a very effective take down...The second move makes a great irimi nage ( jodan punch ), the third move is another throw...etc...And I've seen all three moves taught in other disciplines.

I like the opening of the kata, the juji Uke as blocks...But it could just as well be a cross arm tie up. Which brings me to Taikyoku sono san...

OSU!