GJEC
Member
LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
Posts: 3,218
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Post by GJEC on May 23, 2016 10:55:14 GMT -5
I watched that video and thought "Jeez, I used to teach that". I'm just glad I saw the light.
Competition isn't perfect, we know that, but anything that can't be tested against an opponent that wants to put you down can drift off into fantasy.
Keep posting them. If it makes people think that's a valid motive.
Gary
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Post by meguro on May 24, 2016 4:29:42 GMT -5
Thanks, Gary. We were all in that place at one time. Having moved on, one wonders if the proverbial emperor was not the sovereign of closet nudists. C'mon people, don't you see?
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Post by Sasha S. on May 24, 2016 9:10:26 GMT -5
... if something is wrong with the practice, all the sincere dedication could be for nothing and all you might get in return is a worn out strip of cloth. Man, that's the "nail on the head". Exactly what I've been wrestling with recently.
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Post by meguro on May 25, 2016 11:22:36 GMT -5
You are not alone Sasha. A while ago I had a conversationt with an instructor who insisted that kokken was a legit strike or block. This is the back of the wrist, T-Rex-hands like move (More typewriter as nutcracker bunkai!!!) My position is that some traditional interpretations are wrong, and that there was a gap between those who knew and those who took up teaching without the knowledge. . . And there is an easy tell. While we're asking the questions, we should also question the answers. Probably the question we should all ask is, "who's going to get hurt more with X technique, me or my adversary?" If the answer is "me," it is time to re-evaluate the instruction we're receiving. (Try it with blocks, strikes, stance, etc.)
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azam
Member
Posts: 79
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Post by azam on May 25, 2016 14:26:44 GMT -5
You pretty much summed it up for me as well Meguro. I'm glad I'm not the only one that's been wrestling with it either Sasha.
I've realised that a good amount of applications we get taught are nonsense or an idealised view removed from reality. I think a lot of Karate suffers from this. I think like Gary said you need a realistic medium in which to pressure test this stuff when you don't you get really obscure far removed stuff that is fantasy. But I also think it depends on medium you use to pressure test - some ways to pressure test are superior to others imo.
I'm starting to appreciate the grappling aspects of uke/stances and I think a good degree of them are better suited to grappling than they are to striking - soto uke is one that comes to mind straight away.
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Post by meguro on May 26, 2016 3:29:51 GMT -5
. . . I'm starting to appreciate the grappling aspects of uke/stances and I think a good degree of them are better suited to grappling than they are to striking - soto uke is one that comes to mind straight away. Don't forget chudan uchi uke, which as you might have discovered sucks as a block, compared to simply parrying, dodging or stepping back- works great as a neck crank (break) though. See also morote uke. In a grappling scenario, as for example when your adversary dives for a double or single leg, sprawling is usually the response. It is here that the chudan uchi uke can be used to great effect, by scooping the adversary's head so that the crook of the elbow is beneath his chin and the inner forearm puts pressure along the jaw line. Driving your forearm from inside to outside, with the assistance of the free arm (hence morote uke) puts tremendous pressure on the neck. This video gives you an idea.
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Post by meguro on May 26, 2016 6:09:51 GMT -5
Are you folks familiar with the kata Unsu? There's a video out there called Unsu Commentary, but any will do to amuse you. I won't comment on the ippon nukite (index finger strike), other than to say, "oh rilly," but I would like you to look at the rolling around on the ground bit, all of it. All traditional interpretations of the ground technique are to avoid a midlevel attack or to kick a standing opponent while you are grounded. I just finished this video illustrating a low level takedown, and a neck crank that depends on turning whilst grounded. If you remember my test (Will this hurt me or my opponent?), apply it to the traditional Unsu interpretations and this vid.
Here's another single leg takedown. Note how the hands are crossed and clasped in the beginning. You've seen this before people.
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Post by meguro on May 27, 2016 6:49:06 GMT -5
This, or you could do Pinan sono 3 over and over and never see it.
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azam
Member
Posts: 79
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Post by azam on May 27, 2016 7:50:26 GMT -5
^^^
Something I've been experimenting with is using soto uke on an opponent that has a lapel grip on you (try to use it randori).
I've noticed it's easy to initiate by grabbing your opponents grip and keeping his grip there with the free hand. But the issue is the varying distance because no-one will stay static for you and the opponents arm goes from different degrees of being bent all the way to straight.
I've noticed though from the few times I've played with it that there are a few issues I notice from using it.
So it depends almost entirely on your opponents arm being completely straight to work effectively - and that doesn't always seem to be an easy thing to achieve. I think the nature of the grip & the type of grip an opponent has on you also matter.
From the few times I've tried to use it - it seems like it's a natural reaction in that position for either someone to break grip & move off or just get in a position whereby the arm is not completely straight - usually by moving closer in or trying to move you closer in.
It got me thinking why we pull the hikite in soto-uke in a circular manner across the waist and I finally came to the realisation that the hikite is what makes soto uke work effectively. It's to keep the opponents arm straight by pulling in if his arm is bent or if he tried to get in closer.
Also I noticed you have to torque with your hips otherwise it won't work at all.
I've also realised something as well from the grappling and it's got me thinking wrist control is severely under-developed in many grappling arts. You'd think that in an art where you need to get some sort of grip - wrist control would be an important thing since when grappling (Judo or Kudo) your opponent is literally giving you his hand/wrist.
It got me thinking why on earth isn't there more wrist control in judo & why doesn't that seem to be an option when someone does have grip on you?
I think aikido has given it a negative perception - since a lot of people look at aikido as a useless fantasy art with no basis in reality. It's got me thinking that if you had solid judo & learnt solid wrist control you'd be a very difficult person to deal with - at least in terms of Judo.
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Post by meguro on May 27, 2016 8:45:15 GMT -5
A straight arm wants to be bent against the elbow (arm-bar), a bent arm wants to give you a handle for a shoulder lock. Hikite and soto uke, or hikite gedan barai are your basic arm-bars, of course they can also be used for grip releases. There's not as much of an emphasis on wrist control in Judo because the dogi provides a handle. Aikido evolved out of a need for weapons retention- opponent grabs your wrist to prevent you from drawing your sword, or reaches for your weapon while it's still sheathed/holstered. All the stuff the aikidoka do against a drawn sword is fantasy play, imo.
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Post by MMX on May 27, 2016 11:16:13 GMT -5
Small Circle Jujitsu and Modern Arnis have a lot of wrist and body control to throws.
Takes practice but damn effective. He makes it look really easy.
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Post by meguro on May 28, 2016 8:23:15 GMT -5
^ there are a legion of karateka who have wasted their time practicing the ippon nukite of Unsu, when they could have been learning and practicing finger locks instead. Nice illustration of the soto uke as arm bar.
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Post by meguro on May 30, 2016 3:52:27 GMT -5
If it's Okinawan, it's gotta be authentic, right? Here is an excellent example of how Seienchin is done in Okinawa, including an explanation of how to properly pronounce the name of the kata in Okinawan, Seiyunchin. . Time to question the answers. First, I'd like to know how prevalent double parallel wrist grabs are in Okinawa, or anywhere else for that matter. It seems to me that if one is so careless about who enters his personal space so that wrist grabbing is a constant threat, a simple, "Dude, get out of my face," would eliminate the need for all the tedious Seiyunchin practice. I don't buy the wrist grab scenario in this kata. I feel the same way about the the rear bear hug attack scenario. The suggested counter would never work unless one were attacked by an asthmatic 10 year old, and if the sickly child were to lock on a rear naked choke instead of a bear hug, you'd be in for more fight than you are prepared for. This approach to kata practice is premised on a lot of disjointed if improbable X then not likely Y solutions.
"At least they have good form,"you might say, or, " wow, look at that kime." For Seiyunchin or any kata to have practical value, it must apply to the most representative of violent encounters, not the 1%. Who wants to know a rear bear hug defense? Wouldn't you rather like to know how to take someone's back or put on a rear naked choke? Form and kime mean nothing if one is clueless about the application. Confidently being wrong is still wrong.
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Post by meguro on Jun 1, 2016 10:42:00 GMT -5
Beautiful form honed by decades of diligent practice against one's self. A good pad holder is worth decades, IMO.
The feedback from a pad holder is all you need to know about speed, balance and timing. The tapping out, or the rush of air when you slam an opponent to the mat are also feedback about your technique, and I suppose form.
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Post by meguro on Jun 2, 2016 7:43:47 GMT -5
Here's an idea you might not have considered when it comes to controlling position, control all of it including the spot your opponent is occupying. The first two takedowns in this video would have you step into your opponent's stance, disrupting his equilibrium with a simultaneous push/pull. The last is more of a sweep, though they look very similar. You might also note a sitting restraint/choke that might remind you of the jump and cross-legged landing of Pinan sono go.
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