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Kata
Mar 21, 2011 18:26:44 GMT -5
Post by MMX on Mar 21, 2011 18:26:44 GMT -5
There was a very interesting discussion on Kata on the martial talk weekly radio broadcast.
In the discussion were Sensei D,Chris De Wet(Dent),Richard Trammel(Shidokan Atlanta) and Bob H.
I found that part very interesting.
I do not have much experience with the traditional kata. I was only in Kyokushin for almost a year and had only learned the Taikyoku's and starting on the Pinan's
After that I had moved onto Enshin.
Enshin Kata is more like a shadowboxing combination. You know the move and what it does. There are no hidden bunkai,sure you can substitute a few things but for the most part you can see what it is suppose to be.
What Enshin Kata does for me is help me to refine my kihon,footwork,speed and balance all in its form.
What about Kata do you enjoy or not enjoy??
OSU!
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Kata
Mar 21, 2011 18:44:46 GMT -5
Post by powerof0ne on Mar 21, 2011 18:44:46 GMT -5
I'm not a huge fan of ura kata (doing a kata backwards) because I don't see the bunkai of it all. I like bassai, chinto, kanku, tensho, seienchin, unsu, and paiku. I like more then that and I'm not a huge fan of taikyoku because it's such a beginning kata, not something I personally feel needs a lot of time spent on but I know others disagree. Especially if you spend a lot of time doing ura, gyaku tsuki, ten no kata variations of taikyoku and so on, it's overkill IMHO. Before somebody says something like "I haven't studied taikyoku long enough" keep in mind I was first taught that set of kata over 25 years ago by my Dad. It's also known as "kihon kata" in other styles and they even have five of them and regularly do gyaku tsuki variations...joy. To me the pinan kata are good but are building blocks that really help somebody obviously work up to kanku dai/sho, etc. Bassai dai/sho, etc. (pasai in some styles) is really nice to learn because there are so many versions of it and it's done by so many different karate styles I like paiku a lot and wish I knew more of the Ryeui Ryu kata. In Tjakai we had kata that are similar to the Enshin kata and I even trained at a MT gym years ago that tried to adopt this method which I found interesting. To me those are great at teaching advanced combinations, movements, defenses and practicing them so much that you can be doing kumite and already have the muscle memory down for those kata and start using them. Most bunkai and oyo from the more classical "kata" go against any kumite that I've done inside the dojo and in competition. With that being said kata can be useful if practiced right but it can also be done just as an exercise that you're going through the motions of doing. I think every karateka needs to ask themselves: "Am I ever training kata in a practical way so I can use it for kumite or self defense?" Be honest with yourself...which is often times hard to do. If you're not, what's the point of learning the kata? I've learned far too much kata in my life and wish to only focus on 20 or so at the most these days. V/R Osu!
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Kata
Mar 22, 2011 2:56:20 GMT -5
Post by Ros on Mar 22, 2011 2:56:20 GMT -5
I really like Enshin kata. I used to hate it in Wado when we'd 'do kata' as it was just everyone performing kata in a row - no drills, no bunkai, no particular use really! I always used to think that if it was all about how it looked, then a dancer could probably come in and make it look better.
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monty
Member
Posts: 1,671
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Kata
Mar 22, 2011 3:21:22 GMT -5
Post by monty on Mar 22, 2011 3:21:22 GMT -5
I really like Enshin kata. I used to hate it in Wado when we'd 'do kata' as it was just everyone performing kata in a row - no drills, no bunkai, no particular use really! I always used to think that if it was all about how it looked, then a dancer could probably come in and make it look better. That was more like the Other style In Wado it was "Find a space for Kata" which seemed to be code for "Kids get in Monty's way"
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GJEC
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LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
Posts: 3,218
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Kata
Mar 22, 2011 4:20:10 GMT -5
Post by GJEC on Mar 22, 2011 4:20:10 GMT -5
My view is that in most styles training kata to improve combat efficiency has now (sadly) became training kata to get good at kata. Minute technical details have become overly important for stylistic reasons or to pass the next belt.
In the melee, gross motor movements work better, they're easier to apply ferociously.
Gary
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Kata
Mar 22, 2011 5:14:43 GMT -5
Post by senshido on Mar 22, 2011 5:14:43 GMT -5
I would much rather see a strong kata, than a pretty kata any day, I want the moves that are performed to look like they would do some damage, or indeed DO some damage,
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Kata
Mar 22, 2011 12:50:34 GMT -5
Post by meguro on Mar 22, 2011 12:50:34 GMT -5
I found the kata discussion interesting in that it highlighted the huge disservice traditional kata training offers to the consumer. All those many dance routines served up only sowed confusion and mysticism. Precise choreography and getting your stance just so is useless in the knockdown arena and worse still for self-defense.
Kata training can be made to work, and can be quite useful, if you accept that the movements are less than half the lesson. You've got open the compressed file to understand what is going on. I think you also have to accept that all of the movements depend on you being in close contact and gripping or being gripped by your opponent.
Why gripping? Very simply, if I am not close enough to be grabbed, I am far enough to run away. Also, if a bigger and much stronger opponent, say Gary, wanted to push my face in, I may want to grab his strong hand to prevent it. Or Gary may want to grab me by the collar to make quick work of the pummeling. In either case, one or the other might want to grab or escape from a grab. Duking it out is out of the question for the smaller, disadvantage fighter.
Complex interceptions and subsequent twisting of limbs are not likely to work-too many things to go wrong. If you are waiting to block before acting, the erroneous assumption is that you will be fast enough to react and act properly. However, once someone latches on (you or the other guy), now you've got something to work with.
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Kata
Mar 22, 2011 12:51:24 GMT -5
Post by powerof0ne on Mar 22, 2011 12:51:24 GMT -5
I have to honestly say I spent many years focusing on making kata aesthetically pleasing (damn kata in tournaments!) and it was just how I was taught karate. My sensei was very powerful so I figured if I did everything he told me to do I'd end up being like him. It wasn't until he also had me cross train in goju ryu that I was introduced to more of a application use of kata.
Even the kyokushin I was taught didn't have much of a focus on kata, you more or less had to do the kata to advance in rank but I personally kept doing it with a focus on fighting and preservation. That's not to say Senshido or any other kyokushin dojo isn't teaching practical kata, just how it was at mine.
With that being said I'm now not a fan of kata in tournaments because I think it's very hard to fairly judge somebody doing a kata effectively, with power, and focus vs. somebody doing a kata "pretty". The average person also isn't going to give a flip about you placing first in kata but will about first in knockdown kumite.
Just my .02 cents....that costs about 3.5 cents to make here in the brilliant USA! Osu!
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GJEC
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LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
Posts: 3,218
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Kata
Mar 22, 2011 13:16:38 GMT -5
Post by GJEC on Mar 22, 2011 13:16:38 GMT -5
It's not traditional kata's 'fault', it's the way it's rewarded for looking good rather than working that I feel is wrong.
I think my wife summed this up best.
"For F***'s sake! What's next? Kata on Ice?"
I can't add to that.
Gary
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Kata
Mar 22, 2011 16:36:20 GMT -5
Post by powerof0ne on Mar 22, 2011 16:36:20 GMT -5
LOL Gary, I like the way your wife thinks! Osu!
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evergrey
Member
Get over yourself, mate.
Posts: 854
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Kata
Mar 22, 2011 18:56:59 GMT -5
Post by evergrey on Mar 22, 2011 18:56:59 GMT -5
OSU, I like that kata teaches me how to move a little more smoothly, and an teach with muscle memory. I also like the workout aspect of it, and the moving meditation aspect of it. I find that it is very centering for me, and I feel a lot more grounded after I do it.
That being said, I get a lot more excited about kumite!
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Kata
Mar 23, 2011 5:18:58 GMT -5
Post by senshido on Mar 23, 2011 5:18:58 GMT -5
It's not traditional kata's 'fault', it's the way it's rewarded for looking good rather than working that I feel is wrong. I think my wife summed this up best. "For F***'s sake! What's next? Kata on Ice?" I can't add to that. Gary I went to some freestyle tournaments years ago... they had kata to music!!! it was all somersaults and completely useless impractical stuff... more gymnastics than kata, to me it was no longer kata
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GJEC
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LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
Posts: 3,218
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Kata
Mar 23, 2011 5:37:39 GMT -5
Post by GJEC on Mar 23, 2011 5:37:39 GMT -5
About as much use as my nipples. I just can't understand why people invest so much time in something that doesn't work. I know isolated moves can be applied by talented individuals, but I feel genuinely sorry for karate-ka who think their kata is better when they wear a starched gi. Or keep in time to the music Gary
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fatjoe
Member
Just for Kicks
Posts: 98
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Kata
Mar 23, 2011 7:54:22 GMT -5
Post by fatjoe on Mar 23, 2011 7:54:22 GMT -5
For so many folks kata is what makes them a great karate ka. I love kata, but not as a choreographed dance with little essence or effort to the motions. i love to make it work and sweat profusely from executing deliberately. For me I train it as a rapid fire, everyday stance technique, slow like tai chi and then of course traditionally as hard as possible.
I agree with Meguro and Gary....why do useless choreography.....and to echo that, I get absolutely crazy when some one can not execute anything correctly in a taikyoku kata, swears they know it, then becomes irate when they insist they know all the Pinans, but I wont let them practice them. To me you couldnt break a board with you tsuki or gedan barai when performing the simplest kata. Wobbling and stumbling is typical for a beginner, someone who has been working it for a year should be more proficient. I feel like they look at kata as the only real means of progressing.
As for musical kata........WHY NOT!!!! If it has become useless for so many, nothing like window dressing and flower boxes to pretty things up. While I hate to see it and I am crazy when I see tippy toes dancing around a floor, if thats the joy they get from the MARITAL ARTS LESSON, let them have it, but refuse entry to a real dojo!! lol!
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Kata
Mar 23, 2011 7:55:42 GMT -5
Post by senshido on Mar 23, 2011 7:55:42 GMT -5
The other sad part of this is that kids see the flying somersaults where they kick 20 times before they land back on the ground and think "wow cool" "I want to be like that"
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