azam
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Posts: 79
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Post by azam on Apr 11, 2016 16:17:13 GMT -5
Osu,
I've been doing Kyokushin for a while now and originally when I started I was very enthusiastic - I still am but I'm aware of certain issues I have with Kyokushin & it's making me think is this really the style I want to do.
So thought I'd ask the experienced users here for their opinions - maybe give me different views to help me decide a direction & stick to it. As I've been unable to make a choice lol.
Basically I love knockdown sparring - seriously can't get enough of it. However there are certain misgivings I have about Kyokushin that make me think twice about whether I want to dedicate myself to this style of Karate. There are two main issues I have - first with kata - I mean there are like over 20+ katas and some of them I find a bit tedious & pointless. Learning things in ura for example - I don't get it. I also tend to find very little explanation within Kyokushin for why we do certain things in kata or in some cases I get different answers depending on who I've asked. I look at Okinawan karate styles for help - but most of them excluding shorin-ryu have nearly half the amount of kata.
The other considerable issue I have more than any other is the huge disconnect between techniques done in kihon & the disconnect it has with actual kumite or knockdown sparring.
We do soto uke, uchi uke, age uke etc etc in kihon and we are asked to do things like morote uchi uke or uchi-hachiji-dachi to pass gradings or to complete the syllabus for that kyu grade or for kihon in actual lessons. I don't actually have a problem with learning those things - the problem I have is that till date I've never seen any of those things ever performed in actual kumite - so why do we waste our time learning things we don't actually use?
Why pointless repeat soto-uke, uchi uke etc etc again & again in kihon when that's the only place where it's ever done. Why pointless repeat these things when I've never seen them applied in kumite. Why ask students to learn all these techniques; hand strikes, blocks that are never actually used outside of grading?
It's gotten to the point where I'm thinking I'm missing out on a huge chunk of karate and not learning the real purpose/application behind techniques & having serious doubts about training in Kyokushin.
I've been looking at Okinawan Karate styles and Uechi ryu has really caught my fancy. There seems to be considerably less kata (only 8) and everything learnt is drilled into actual kumite. The only thing that's keeping me from making the switch is the fact that I enjoy the toughening, conditioning & sparring aspects of Kyokushin.
Anyways need some wisdom here and basically I'm asking what everyone's view is - if anyone has gone through something similar & what advice you can give me?
At the moment I'm leaning to doing Uechi Ryu permanently & looking for Kyokushin dojos where I can spar but not grade.
Osu!
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Post by meguro on Apr 12, 2016 7:13:05 GMT -5
Osu! You are not alone, azam. Enjoy knockdown for the training, kumite and camaraderie. Kata is the very last thing that should hold you to Kyokushin. If you try to make sense of it, you will lose interest in Kyokushin very quickly (the same can be said for other styles of Karate, not just Kypkushin). Will Uechi Ryu be the authentic karate you are seeking? As I write this, I'm listening to an NHK documentary on Okinawan Karate, "Okinawan Karate is not about defeating the opponent in front of you, but the one within." Sounds too woo to me. If you meld something philosophical or "magical" to your subject matter, you create compromises, you degrade it. At the same time, you create a shroud of tradition where ignorance and nonsense can be perpetuated. Remember that many of the Okinawan styles' claims to authenticity was that founders spent some time in China and learned some secrets. In this time of Youtube and cheap airfare,why not cut out the middle man? Note, I am not saying Chinese martial arts are more "real," there's plenty of woo to go around. Recognizing woo is simple. A style that emphasizes too much conditioning, turning fingertips to spearpoints for example, may not have a complete understanding of the dances (kata) or human physiology, or may have a romantic but impractical view of what can be accomplished in training. Note, it could be that the training itself is the goal (the realization that fingertips will never be spearpoints, but pursuing such a path anyway). Can't help you on that one. Soto uke may be used to hyperextend the elbow, or as a takedown, two very simple applications that would not make it into competition unless competition rules allowed such technique. Soto uke, as a block for a middle or high punch will likely end up with you getting punched in the face or elsewhere (not talking about a simple parry). My advice is to determine what is most important to you. If it is the tradition of karate, you will have to swallow the woo. If it is sport, Kyokushin, Enshin, Kudo, MMA Muay Thai should be under your consideration. If it is kata (not the dancing), karate may not be the thing for you.
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Post by MMX on Apr 12, 2016 11:23:14 GMT -5
azamYou will have to search inside for the answer. If you enjoy sparring/knockdown but do not enjoy traditional kata I doubt you would enjoy an even more traditional style. You may want to either look at a more progressive Karate(ie Ashihara/Enshin/Kudo/Etc) or more of a full sport like Kickboxing or Muay Thai. You may even look at stuff like Arnis/Eskrima/Silat. Take a break and check out some other schools/training centers and then make your choice. I hope you find what you are looking for. Osu!
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azam
Member
Posts: 79
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Post by azam on Apr 12, 2016 14:21:11 GMT -5
Osu! You are not alone, azam. Enjoy knockdown for the training, kumite and camaraderie. Kata is the very last thing that should hold you to Kyokushin. If you try to make sense of it, you will lose interest in Kyokushin very quickly (the same can be said for other styles of Karate, not just Kypkushin). Will Uechi Ryu be the authentic karate you are seeking? As I write this, I'm listening to an NHK documentary on Okinawan Karate, "Okinawan Karate is not about defeating the opponent in front of you, but the one within." Sounds too woo to me. If you meld something philosophical or "magical" to your subject matter, you create compromises, you degrade it. At the same time, you create a shroud of tradition where ignorance and nonsense can be perpetuated. Remember that many of the Okinawan styles' claims to authenticity was that founders spent some time in China and learned some secrets. In this time of Youtube and cheap airfare,why not cut out the middle man? Note, I am not saying Chinese martial arts are more "real," there's plenty of woo to go around. Recognizing woo is simple. A style that emphasizes too much conditioning, turning fingertips to spearpoints for example, may not have a complete understanding of the dances (kata) or human physiology, or may have a romantic but impractical view of what can be accomplished in training. Note, it could be that the training itself is the goal (the realization that fingertips will never be spearpoints, but pursuing such a path anyway). Can't help you on that one. Soto uke may be used to hyperextend the elbow, or as a takedown, two very simple applications that would not make it into competition unless competition rules allowed such technique. Soto uke, as a block for a middle or high punch will likely end up with you getting punched in the face or elsewhere (not talking about a simple parry). My advice is to determine what is most important to you. If it is the tradition of karate, you will have to swallow the woo. If it is sport, Kyokushin, Enshin, Kudo, MMA Muay Thai should be under your consideration. If it is kata (not the dancing), karate may not be the thing for you. Osu! Thanks for your time Meguro. Kata isn't the only thing that bothers me with Kyokushin - it's also that we learn soo many hand blocks, ukes & stances that we never use outside of Kihon or grading. I think that bothers me more. I don't really have an issue with kata - I do have an issue learning 20+ kata - especially in ura (why!) - hell does anyone even remember verbatim that much kata content - I mean even 90% of Okinawan Karate doesn't have that number of kata (excluding shorin ryu) - if you look at the general syllabus of Okinawan Goju & Uechi ryu - they have 12 & 8 respectively. I love the training, camaraderie, kumite of Kyokushin. It's just that there are gaping holes that I really never noticed before that I've been noticing for a while now. Like the examples I gave - learning soto uke etc, repeating it endlessly in Kihon & never applying any of the techniques we learn outside of gradings or Kihon. I mean if it is in Karate's manual & tool book - surely it is meant for more than just Kihon & gradings? We take other techniques in Kihon like Mawashi geris, chudan tsukis, shita tsuki etc and use them in kumite or learn to do so but for some reason we don't do the same with at least 60% of the Kyokushin techniques syllabus like uchi uke, mawashi uke, soto uke etc. Uechi ryu seems to be similar to Kyokushin - not as hard but still relatively hard - less kata & more importantly everything they learn in Kihon they attempt to apply in kumite. I like the emphasis they have on circular & linear parrying and that the syllabus seems much more robust & simplistic than Kyokushin. Less content but everything taught gets used. Plus they have sparring in knockdown rules & with face punches. I realise though that if I did Uechi ryu - I'd find what I'm looking for but I feel I'd need to find a place that offer more sparring. Like you said there is a lot of wooo in Karate and I think sparring will sort out the wooo from the "ok this works." The only thing I'm not to keen on is the spearhand stuff in Uechi ryu. I'm sure you understand why lol. But that said I don't think it's wooo. It's a bit like Kyokushin if I'm honest - with similar emphasis on conditioning. My goal is funnily enough to learn what I feel Karate should be if that makes sense & to compete in Kudo also. I think I want the traditional with the sports aspect. I think I realise that the sports aspect only lasts so long (while your physically able) - I'd also like the traditional aspect because I feel this is a more life long pursuit. It's a bit of an oxymoron.
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azam
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Posts: 79
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Post by azam on Apr 12, 2016 14:37:39 GMT -5
azam You will have to search inside for the answer. If you enjoy sparring/knockdown but do not enjoy traditional kata I doubt you would enjoy an even more traditional style. You may want to either look at a more progressive Karate(ie Ashihara/Enshin/Kudo/Etc) or more of a full sport like Kickboxing or Muay Thai. You may even look at stuff like Arnis/Eskrima/Silat. Take a break and check out some other schools/training centers and then make your choice. I hope you find what you are looking for. Osu! Osu! Thanks for your time MMX. It's been bothering me for a while and I can't seem to make up my mind. I enjoy the sparring & the traditional kata - my beef is with learning soo much content with every grading and not using nearly 70% percent of it - outside of Kihon & gradings. I want to be able to apply whatever I dedicate my time to learning so it has some use to me. The problem I have with kata in Kyokushin - is there seems to be no real emphasis on what we are learning or even why we are doing it - in some cases there seems to be an acceptance that it is a dance & we are only doing it to pass a specific grading. I mean what's the purpose in learning taikyoku sono ichi, ni & san for example? You can teach all that content without having to learn a kata for it. I don't have a problem with kata - just the fact that we are learning some kata & a lot of content that really is of no use & we never seem to use in kumite or real life for that matter. Ideally I'd love a style that mixes traditional with sport - a bit like Kyokushin - just with less useless content. Ideally a Kyokushin/Uechi ryu hybrid would be ideal lol. Maybe that is what I should do - learn Uechi ryu & grade in it. Stick with kyokushin training but not bother grading in it. This is what I'm leaning to atm.
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Post by MMX on Apr 12, 2016 16:41:02 GMT -5
Is there Ashihara or Enshin near you? There is a bit less Kihon and far less kata and the kata you do learn is all practical(called JISSEN kata) or fighting kata.
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azam
Member
Posts: 79
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Post by azam on Apr 13, 2016 4:22:01 GMT -5
Is there Ashihara or Enshin near you? There is a bit less Kihon and far less kata and the kata you do learn is all practical(called JISSEN kata) or fighting kata. Unfortunately there isn't an enshin or an Ashihara place in South London as far as I know - have had a look. I don't mind kihon - I think it's the most important thing in Karate. Just don't want do be doing Kihon of things that are never used in actual kumite. Osu!
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Post by slaine on Apr 13, 2016 4:56:54 GMT -5
If I'm not mistaken I think there's Kudo in London.
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monty
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Posts: 1,671
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Post by monty on Apr 13, 2016 8:02:28 GMT -5
Is there Ashihara or Enshin near you? There is a bit less Kihon and far less kata and the kata you do learn is all practical(called JISSEN kata) or fighting kata. Unfortunately there isn't an enshin or an Ashihara place in South London as far as I know - have had a look. Osu! Aye, the only two Enshin Dojo's are Loughborough and Gloucester
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azam
Member
Posts: 79
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Post by azam on Apr 13, 2016 9:22:07 GMT -5
If I'm not mistaken I think there's Kudo in London. LOL - I haven't set that up yet! Still looking for cost effective locations to set it up. So for now will have to drive up to Slough until it get's sorted here!
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Post by senshido on Apr 13, 2016 9:22:26 GMT -5
There is no way you would use all the kihon techniques in knockdown kumite, you would use a few more though in clicker kumite, and even more in self defence.
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Post by meguro on Apr 14, 2016 4:51:49 GMT -5
. . . Kata isn't the only thing that bothers me with Kyokushin - it's also that we learn soo many hand blocks, ukes & stances that we never use outside of Kihon or grading. I think that bothers me more. I don't really have an issue with kata - I do have an issue learning 20+ kata - especially in ura (why!) - hell does anyone even remember verbatim that much kata content - I mean even 90% of Okinawan Karate doesn't have that number of kata (excluding shorin ryu) - if you look at the general syllabus of Okinawan Goju & Uechi ryu - they have 12 & 8 respectively. I love the training, camaraderie, kumite of Kyokushin. It's just that there are gaping holes that I really never noticed before that I've been noticing for a while now. Like the examples I gave - learning soto uke etc, repeating it endlessly in Kihon & never applying any of the techniques we learn outside of gradings or Kihon. I mean if it is in Karate's manual & tool book - surely it is meant for more than just Kihon & gradings? We take other techniques in Kihon like Mawashi geris, chudan tsukis, shita tsuki etc and use them in kumite or learn to do so but for some reason we don't do the same with at least 60% of the Kyokushin techniques syllabus like uchi uke, mawashi uke, soto uke etc. Uechi ryu seems to be similar to Kyokushin - not as hard but still relatively hard - less kata & more importantly everything they learn in Kihon they attempt to apply in kumite. I like the emphasis they have on circular & linear parrying and that the syllabus seems much more robust & simplistic than Kyokushin. Less content but everything taught gets used. Plus they have sparring in knockdown rules & with face punches. I realise though that if I did Uechi ryu - I'd find what I'm looking for but I feel I'd need to find a place that offer more sparring. Like you said there is a lot of wooo in Karate and I think sparring will sort out the wooo from the "ok this works." The only thing I'm not to keen on is the spearhand stuff in Uechi ryu. I'm sure you understand why lol. But that said I don't think it's wooo. It's a bit like Kyokushin if I'm honest - with similar emphasis on conditioning. My goal is funnily enough to learn what I feel Karate should be if that makes sense & to compete in Kudo also. I think I want the traditional with the sports aspect. I think I realise that the sports aspect only lasts so long (while your physically able) - I'd also like the traditional aspect because I feel this is a more life long pursuit. It's a bit of an oxymoron. The premise of knockdown and point fighting (to a certain extent) is that striking certain targets is the only valid/safe way to win a fight. The technique of kihon and kata, therefore will place an emphasis on the striking applications. As should be plain to most everyone, not every technique is a strike, or meant to support a strike. The uke and stances you do not employ in kumite are not inferior blocks and funny ways to stand; they are better employed in the rough and tumble of grappling. Does grappling occur in knockdown or Uechi Ryu? Sparring can only sort out the woo in the context of the rules of sparring. If you cannot grab, choke or submit your opponent during sparring, how are you to know? Chudan soto uke can be used to apply an arm-bar or to finish a takedown, but unless you are actually using these technique chudan soto uke will forever seem like an over complicated block. Jodan uke can be used as an effective counter to the previously mentioned arm bars and takedowns, or less effectively, to protect your face. The "ok this works" approach to validation depends on the situation. The right tool for the right job- not every job calls for a hammer. Of course, you can choose to use a hammer for every job. But then you would not be interested in the things you say interest you.
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GJEC
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LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
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Post by GJEC on Apr 14, 2016 15:17:40 GMT -5
Training is like any other relationship.
If you're ready to change you find yourself focussing on the bad bits, while if you want it to continue you focus on the good.
Gary
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azam
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Posts: 79
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Post by azam on Apr 18, 2016 18:03:35 GMT -5
There is no way you would use all the kihon techniques in knockdown kumite, you would use a few more though in clicker kumite, and even more in self defence. Then why teach all the kihon techniques that never actually get tested outside of knockdown kumite/clicker. Why teach kihon techniques that never are actually used outside of passing a kyu grade? Self defence is all great & everything but I think a lot of what we get taught gets thrown out of the window without the sparring to teach how to apply it. I mean what goshin jutsu type sparring do we do? Drilling is great but you need some sort of sparring to pressure test it. I thought the heart of our karate is real fighting and that there can be no proof without real fighting. We only really pressure test techniques in sparring & that is exclusively knockdown or clicker depending on the dojo. I'm not even saying that we should use all kihon techniques but we don't use the majority of techniques we learn in sparring. I haven't seen anyone use uchi uke, age uke, mawashi uke etc etc. If we don't pressure test techniques why bother including them in the syllabus? I mean I'm sure there are plenty of karateka that have failed gradings because they didn't know 'x' kihon technique they've never used (or will ever use despite for passing that grading) or some kata in ura - despite being more than able to fight for that level & have the physical ability. I'm sure it happens. Not only that I think that much content hinders karateka - you can only really perfect things you spend time on. More content means more spread time over content - less content means more time on each bit of content.
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azam
Member
Posts: 79
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Post by azam on Apr 18, 2016 18:47:34 GMT -5
The premise of knockdown and point fighting (to a certain extent) is that striking certain targets is the only valid/safe way to win a fight. The technique of kihon and kata, therefore will place an emphasis on the striking applications. As should be plain to most everyone, not every technique is a strike, or meant to support a strike. The uke and stances you do not employ in kumite are not inferior blocks and funny ways to stand; they are better employed in the rough and tumble of grappling. Does grappling occur in knockdown or Uechi Ryu? Sparring can only sort out the woo in the context of the rules of sparring. If you cannot grab, choke or submit your opponent during sparring, how are you to know? Chudan soto uke can be used to apply an arm-bar or to finish a takedown, but unless you are actually using these technique chudan soto uke will forever seem like an over complicated block. Jodan uke can be used as an effective counter to the previously mentioned arm bars and takedowns, or less effectively, to protect your face. The "ok this works" approach to validation depends on the situation. The right tool for the right job- not every job calls for a hammer. Of course, you can choose to use a hammer for every job. But then you would not be interested in the things you say interest you. I agree wholeheartedly with you Meguro. But that's my problem - "The uke and stances you do not employ in kumite are not inferior blocks and funny ways to stand" - my point is exactly why don't we employ them in kumite? We only seem to use them to pass gradings. Some are definitely because of the grappling issue - begs asking why are they in Kyokushin if we aren't grappling & if they are for grappling why don't we have grappling kumite/sparring in Kyokushin - if that content exists there! This the crux of the problem I'm having with Kyokushin. I want to learn these ukes/techniques and learn how to employ them in kumite (whether that is striking or grappling) and it seems like we aren't learning to do that in Kyokushin outside of the group of techniques that are used in knockdown. But we are still made to learn them to pass gradings & do endless repetitions in kihon. That would be all good if I was taught how to apply this stuff in kumite. That's my issue - to the point it's made me have second thoughts about Kyokushin - I feel like I'm missing out on a huge chunk of karate training here. Uechi ryu does employ a bit of grappling (mainly sweeps) but it's content is mainly geared towards striking. It's ancestor is pangai-noon and it's development is quite unlike all the other Okinawan karate styles - in that the founder actually trained in Pangainoon in China for 10 years & brought it back and taught it to others (there were only 3 katas he taught). The content is much more robust & smaller and I also think it might fit perfectly in Kudo. Especially the circular blocks - and the emphasis on gripping in Uechi ryu - think it's a tailor made fit for Kudo & grappling. I mean for example I tried mawashi uke to break a lapel grip in Kudo training (as I saw it done in Uechi ryu) and it broke my opponents grip almost instantly. I've also used it to get a better grip on someone in kudo if they go for my sleeve. Osu! The sparring comment is very true. This is why I feel the best place to put this altogether is Kudo. It's a shame you don't teach in the UK - I'd love to learn some of the grappling aspects especially from a karate perspective.
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