|
|
Post by meguro on Apr 19, 2016 3:52:32 GMT -5
Osu! Azam. As to why there is a disconnect between kihon, kata and kumite, I place the blame on ignorance and tradition. You may have seen a video circulating around showing how judo, sumo, sambo, Silat and karate are all one family. The video includes actual clips from competitions in the other arts, but also of karateka demonstrating similar technique, the message is apparantly, " don't dump on karate, we do these technique as well." While I agree that the martial arts are all one family, I disagree that karate does things as well in the area of grappling- that is a lie. Of course there are exceptions, Enshin, Asihara, and Kudo come to mind, but you can see how they are different from traditional karate.
If not for the Internet, the idea that there are "hidden" applications in kihon and kata would remain the stuff of conspiracy theorists and tin-foil hat wearers. The fact is, if you train in a wide variety of martial arts the "hidden" is in plain view. There are no secrets, only inflexible ways of thinking. BTW, when you train in other martial arts, you will not be taught the meaning of "Kiba dachi, chudan soto uke, Jodan uke" etc., you will be learning and practicing the applications as they are ( takedowns, joint manipulations, chokes, etc.). Once you have acquired the knowledge and skills you will see the family resemblance, the hidden. The internet speeds up this process, this conversation for example, and the connections you make. If only Mas Oyama had broadband access way back when he escaped to the mountains and punched trees, how different Kyokushin would be.
|
|
GJEC
Member
LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
Posts: 3,218
|
Post by GJEC on Apr 19, 2016 4:30:34 GMT -5
I know when I joined Kyokushin in 1971 the syllabus was a few A4 sheets stapled together.
Today's is a slick book and the number of techniques required for tests has quadrupled.
BUT, and it's a huge but, the fighters in the 70's were all capable of having a fight in or out of the dojo.
Today I see high grades that couldn't fight sleep outside the narrow confines of dojo sparring, and even then only with the luxury of respectful opponents.
Time for a return to roughhouse 'dojo fighting' and to ditch anything that distracts people from the goal of fighting and winning as quickly as possible.
IMO
|
|
|
|
Post by meguro on Apr 19, 2016 9:26:25 GMT -5
It's all Dolph Lindgren's fault.  Follow me on this. Didn't they make illegal the grabbing because taller fighters would inevitably follow up with a knee to the face? Also, did Kyokushin always have weight category tournaments, or was that a later development? Anyway, if you allow grabbing in tournaments, eventually a whole repertoire of set-ups and counters will develop. Pretty soon a simple syllabus is chock full of useful stuff. The other approach is to fill the syllabus with busy work, like ura katas, and tailor tournament rules until the relationship to reality is quite obscure. |
|
azam
Member
Posts: 79 
|
Post by azam on Apr 19, 2016 13:08:32 GMT -5
Osu! Azam. As to why there is a disconnect between kihon, kata and kumite, I place the blame on ignorance and tradition. You may have seen a video circulating around showing how judo, sumo, sambo, Silat and karate are all one family. The video includes actual clips from competitions in the other arts, but also of karateka demonstrating similar technique, the message is apparantly, " don't dump on karate, we do these technique as well." While I agree that the martial arts are all one family, I disagree that karate does things as well in the area of grappling- that is a lie. Of course there are exceptions, Enshin, Asihara, and Kudo come to mind, but you can see how they are different from traditional karate. If not for the Internet, the idea that there are "hidden" applications in kihon and kata would remain the stuff of conspiracy theorists and tin-foil hat wearers. The fact is, if you train in a wide variety of martial arts the "hidden" is in plain view. There are no secrets, only inflexible ways of thinking. BTW, when you train in other martial arts, you will not be taught the meaning of "Kiba dachi, chudan soto uke, Jodan uke" etc., you will be learning and practicing the applications as they are ( takedowns, joint manipulations, chokes, etc.). Once you have acquired the knowledge and skills you will see the family resemblance, the hidden. The internet speeds up this process, this conversation for example, and the connections you make. If only Mas Oyama had broadband access way back when he escaped to the mountains and punched trees, how different Kyokushin would be. Osu to that. I think though that some styles have a better connect between kihon, kumite and kata. Although none are perfect - I feel like with Kyokushin it's much more noticeable than with any other style of Karate I've tried. Lol I think if Mas Oyama had broadband access back then - he might not have bothered going up that mountain! Yeah I've seen that video but I'd rather learn a grappling art like you said - they do a better job of it. |
|
azam
Member
Posts: 79
|
Post by azam on Apr 19, 2016 13:33:06 GMT -5
I know when I joined Kyokushin in 1971 the syllabus was a few A4 sheets stapled together. Today's is a slick book and the number of techniques required for tests has quadrupled. BUT, and it's a huge but, the fighters in the 70's were all capable of having a fight in or out of the dojo. Today I see high grades that couldn't fight sleep outside the narrow confines of dojo sparring, and even then only with the luxury of respectful opponents. Time for a return to roughhouse 'dojo fighting' and to ditch anything that distracts people from the goal of fighting and winning as quickly as possible. IMO Osu! That's a shocker about the syllabus. Don't understand why they added more techniques - maybe they thought they would get used or applied. Or maybe done to make it more 'karate-ish.' I definitely agree about the older Kyokushin generation - Before starting Kyokushin and karate - I was obsessed with old school kyokushin, can't tell you how much I read & watched. I was and still am a huge fan of Shihan Howard Collins. I've always said - multiple times that the older generation of kyokushin fighters were better rounded that kyokushin fighters of today. I think it may have been because syllabus content was more simple/robust and sparring seemed less restricted. I've watched all the older kyokushin tournaments and they seem to be fought at a completely different distance than today - I think that plays a big part in it. |
|
GJEC
Member
LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
Posts: 3,218
|
Post by GJEC on Apr 19, 2016 15:31:00 GMT -5
In those days if anyone told us it didn't work we'd have politely invited them to demonstrate where we were going wrong.
Few enjoyed it.
Gary
|
|
|
|
Post by senshido on Apr 21, 2016 8:07:57 GMT -5
Then why teach all the kihon techniques that never actually get tested outside of knockdown kumite/clicker. Kyokushin is not all about kumite Why teach kihon techniques that never are actually used outside of passing a kyu grade? Self defence is all great & everything but I think a lot of what we get taught gets thrown out of the window without the sparring to teach how to apply it. I mean what goshin jutsu type sparring do we do? What is goshin jutsu sparring?Drilling is great but you need some sort of sparring to pressure test it. I agree... all techniques should be tested under pressure, I'm surprised they are notI thought the heart of our karate is real fighting and that there can be no proof without real fighting. Real fighting doesn't have rules... We only really pressure test techniques in sparring & that is exclusively knockdown or clicker depending on the dojo. Pressure testing can include being attacked or grabbed etc in any way at all, most of the kihon techniques are used in self preservation not kumiteI'm not even saying that we should use all kihon techniques but we don't use the majority of techniques we learn in sparring. I haven't seen anyone use uchi uke, age uke, mawashi uke etc etc. I have personally used versions of uchi uke and jodan uke in sparring, mawashi uke in self defence... why learn them if you are not going to practice them or try them out... I like to try everything out and then use what suits me the best. A technique that you hate might be someone else's go to favourite technique, just because you don't like it or it doesn't work for you does not mean it is useless or not used.If we don't pressure test techniques why bother including them in the syllabus? exactly!... so pressure test them, get a friend to grab hold of you or hit you and try them outI mean I'm sure there are plenty of karateka that have failed gradings because they didn't know 'x' kihon technique they've never used (or will ever use despite for passing that grading) or some kata in ura - despite being more than able to fight for that level & have the physical ability. I'm sure there are, and to be brutally honest, if you don't know the required techniques, you are wasting your time attempting the test, I mean why would you? you know what is required, so if you want to move on, learn itI'm sure it happens. Not only that I think that much content hinders karateka - you can only really perfect things you spend time on. More content means more spread time over content - less content means more time on each bit of content. It srikes me that Kyokushin is not for you, you are putting way too many negatives out there in order to justify your already made up mind.... I would say its time to move on.
P.S. I hate long posts and very rarely read them to the end so don't expect a quick reply from a long post The above answers are purely my opinion... and I'm not in the habit of getting into lengthy discussions, I think what I think and you think what you think... and I can live with that  PPS... I love Kyokushin!! |
|
azam
Member
Posts: 79
|
Post by azam on Apr 21, 2016 13:47:39 GMT -5
Then why teach all the kihon techniques that never actually get tested outside of knockdown kumite/clicker. 1. Kyokushin is not all about kumite Why teach kihon techniques that never are actually used outside of passing a kyu grade? Self defence is all great & everything but I think a lot of what we get taught gets thrown out of the window without the sparring to teach how to apply it. I mean what goshin jutsu type sparring do we do? 2. What is goshin jutsu sparring?Drilling is great but you need some sort of sparring to pressure test it. 3. I agree... all techniques should be tested under pressure, I'm surprised they are notI thought the heart of our karate is real fighting and that there can be no proof without real fighting. 4. Real fighting doesn't have rules... We only really pressure test techniques in sparring & that is exclusively knockdown or clicker depending on the dojo. 5. Pressure testing can include being attacked or grabbed etc in any way at all, most of the kihon techniques are used in self preservation not kumiteI'm not even saying that we should use all kihon techniques but we don't use the majority of techniques we learn in sparring. I haven't seen anyone use uchi uke, age uke, mawashi uke etc etc. 6. I have personally used versions of uchi uke and jodan uke in sparring, mawashi uke in self defence... why learn them if you are not going to practice them or try them out... I like to try everything out and then use what suits me the best. A technique that you hate might be someone else's go to favourite technique, just because you don't like it or it doesn't work for you does not mean it is useless or not used.If we don't pressure test techniques why bother including them in the syllabus? 7. exactly!... so pressure test them, get a friend to grab hold of you or hit you and try them outI mean I'm sure there are plenty of karateka that have failed gradings because they didn't know 'x' kihon technique they've never used (or will ever use despite for passing that grading) or some kata in ura - despite being more than able to fight for that level & have the physical ability. I'm sure there are, and to be brutally honest, if you don't know the required techniques, you are wasting your time attempting the test, I mean why would you? you know what is required, so if you want to move on, learn itI'm sure it happens. Not only that I think that much content hinders karateka - you can only really perfect things you spend time on. More content means more spread time over content - less content means more time on each bit of content. 8. It srikes me that Kyokushin is not for you, you are putting way too many negatives out there in order to justify your already made up mind.... I would say its time to move on.
P.S. I hate long posts and very rarely read them to the end so don't expect a quick reply from a long post The above answers are purely my opinion... and I'm not in the habit of getting into lengthy discussions, I think what I think and you think what you think... and I can live with that PPS... I love Kyokushin!! Osu! Thanks for the reply Senshido. 1. Kyokushin is not all about kumite - but I feel the kumite part is pretty important. 2. Any type of self defense related sparring. You mentioned self defense (in using more kihon technique) - I was asking how do you pressure test those techniques - what kind of self defense related sparring do these techniques get pressure tested under. 3. As far as I've seen in my experience (yours probably is greater) a lot of kihon techniques never get pressure tested - drilled a lot but never pressure tested to give an example; the one I see all the time in Kyokushin is using jodan or age uke for a parrying a straight - this is drilled a lot - even Hasegawa is drilling this - I've seen it plenty of times as well (at 2mins25sec): If age uke or jodan uke was pressure tested - it would quickly be known that - that application doesn't work 9.9999 times out of 10. I've been punched in the head enough times to realise it doesn't either lol. It only ever works when your weight is on the rear - which is how old school boxers used it & that I only ever learnt when I read an old school boxing article - not from any karate source. Age Uke isn't the only example - there are numerous. Sanchin dachi is another great example - no real explanation what that is...The best explanation I've got is from Meguro - as an Ouchi Gari application - my props to him again for telling me. Juji-uke is another...There is honestly a big chunk of kihon content. 4. Osu - real fighting has no rules but if you can't get a technique to work in an environment where everyone agrees on a rule/safety precautions how should one expect it to work without any rules - a more controlled environment vs a less controlled environment. 5. Drilling can include grabbing & attacking if someone is the uke & tori but that's not the same as pressure testing - I feel. That's drilling. Pressure testing fighting/sparring with full contact & against a fully resist opponent. Even Judoka who drill a heck of a lot -need randori to learn how to apply things. 6 & 7. Osu - that is a great attitude. But you can understand the apprehension & the sense that your missing out on something when in lesson - no one is really applying or pressure testing the bulk of what we do in kihon outside of the standard kumite techniques. Sure I can partner up with someone & pressure test them myself but that is like the blind leading the blind especially if I have a poor reference point. If I have jodan uke as a counter block for gyaku tsuki as a reference - or a list of references/applications that are devoid of sense - your basically starting from ground zero. Just as we are taught how to punch/kick correctly shouldn't we also be taught how to apply techniques we learn in kihon - it seems we are taught that for some techniques and not others. 8. Sorry if I'm coming across as negative - I'm focusing on these things in a way to get an answer that might change my perspective - nothing to do with negativity. I love Kyokushin as well Senshido - the camaraderie, mentality & sparring - just can't get past some of the issues I have with it. Maybe focusing on the bad bits is the cue that maybe I'm ready to move on & find what I'm looking for. Osu sorry for the long post & thanks for your time! Osu! |
|
GJEC
Member
LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
Posts: 3,218
|
Post by GJEC on Apr 22, 2016 3:25:23 GMT -5
The answer is a fairly obvious one Azam.
The trouble with karate, as opposed to say amateur football, is that every member is seen as a potential black belt or instructor. The skills have to be learnt to a standard that will then allow them to passed on - 'pure and unsullied' - to the next eager students. In amateur football only a few express interest in coaching, often when injury curtails their playing career. Only then are the technical aspects really delved into.
If you only want practical, be honest with your instructor. Don't bother joining the rush to black belt as a potential future coach. Make sure you can use and apply everything you are taught before grading up. You will soon be the guy the black belts hate sparring with. You'll know less than them but be better at it.
Gary
|
|
GJEC
Member
LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
Posts: 3,218
|
Post by GJEC on Apr 22, 2016 5:37:08 GMT -5
PS it's what we should all do.
|
|
azam
Member
Posts: 79
|
Post by azam on Apr 27, 2016 8:48:05 GMT -5
The answer is a fairly obvious one Azam. The trouble with karate, as opposed to say amateur football, is that every member is seen as a potential black belt or instructor. The skills have to be learnt to a standard that will then allow them to passed on - 'pure and unsullied' - to the next eager students. In amateur football only a few express interest in coaching, often when injury curtails their playing career. Only then are the technical aspects really delved into. If you only want practical, be honest with your instructor. Don't bother joining the rush to black belt as a potential future coach. Make sure you can use and apply everything you are taught before grading up. You will soon be the guy the black belts hate sparring with. You'll know less than them but be better at it. Gary Osu - thanks for the wisdom. I'm in this for the long haul - or I'd like to be. I'd like to maybe instruct one day - if I ever get there. I think that's the best advice I've received from yourself & senshido - to just make sure I can apply everything before grading up. Unfortunately that's where my problems lie. For example if I'm taught jodan uke and the applications/reference points I'm given don't actually work - where do I go. I mean I have the net as a resource but I need a live partner to drill & the right environment to apply it. I can't always get a hold of those two things especially when classes are the instructor's time - not everyone is willing to stay after class as well - as everyone has work the next day and I don't want to impose on people's time like that. The alternative is find somewhere I can find those things whilst having an avenue where I can apply them. Thanks for your time Gary - Osu. |
|
GJEC
Member
LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
Posts: 3,218
|
Post by GJEC on Apr 27, 2016 10:07:00 GMT -5
You're welcome to any advice I can give.
There will of course be some stuff that is not practical and no one knows why the hell we do it.
Things that no one has the balls to say "This is a complete waste of time" so they just pass it on regardless or make up junk applications to cover their embarrassment.
It's easiest to treat karate like a chef and a buffet. Learn how to prepare everything even if you don't like to eat it yourself.
Gary
|
|
|
|
Post by senshido on May 2, 2016 12:36:37 GMT -5
"For example if I'm taught jodan uke and the applications/reference points I'm given don't actually work - where do I go"
to satisfy my curiosity... what applications are you given for jodan uke?
|
|
azam
Member
Posts: 79
|
Post by azam on May 3, 2016 8:23:09 GMT -5
"For example if I'm taught jodan uke and the applications/reference points I'm given don't actually work - where do I go" to satisfy my curiosity... what applications are you given for jodan uke? Three come immediately to mind that I've come across: 1. Jodan uke for receiving straight punch (I see this one everywhere - nearly always in zenkutsu dachi). 2. Jodan uke as a blow to the neck, after weakening a lapel grip. 3. Jodan uke as a means of creating space to initiate single leg/sweep. |
|
GJEC
Member
LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
Posts: 3,218
|
Post by GJEC on May 3, 2016 11:01:58 GMT -5
4 Strengthening a flinch reflex.
I was picking up litter the other day and a branch flicked back towards my face. Instinctively threw my arm up. Sorted.
|
|
Follow me on this. Didn't they make illegal the grabbing because taller fighters would inevitably follow up with a knee to the face? Also, did Kyokushin always have weight category tournaments, or was that a later development? Anyway, if you allow grabbing in tournaments, eventually a whole repertoire of set-ups and counters will develop. Pretty soon a simple syllabus is chock full of useful stuff. The other approach is to fill the syllabus with busy work, like ura katas, and tailor tournament rules until the relationship to reality is quite obscure.
