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Post by meguro on Oct 25, 2013 7:14:04 GMT -5
My apologies, Gary. I didn't mean for you to delete a thread that you found interesting. Actually, I was flattered you chose one of mine on K4L. I only meant to explain my neglect on not raising the topic here as well as on another forum. Laziness, I suppose. I didn't want have to defend myself on two fronts if the discussions got heated. But, laziness be damned. I would not stand for discouraging conversation. So, have at it my friends. If I recall, you were in favor of combat sport and not opposed to others having their art. I came down quite hard on art. I said it allows all kinds of silliness in the martial arts to occur unexamined. I raised examples of the infamous 5 th dan test video, ki, far out bunkai, etc. it is my aim to bust some icons, get rid of the dogma, and look at what we do with a rational eye.
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on Oct 25, 2013 8:00:10 GMT -5
I thought it was an interesting discussion. I personally saw myself as a competitor then coach in a combat sport. I don't confuse Kyokushin with 'knockdown', or Enshin with 'sabaki challenge', but just know I got more out of the competition side.
But we're all different. My oldest loved rugby training but was sick before important matches, my middle one can take it or leave it with training but loves getting stuck in ...
And so with karate, it's such a wide scope we can all find some benefit. Older people might look deeper into the spiritual / art aspect but I do feel youngsters should compete and test themselves; not start quoting Miyamoto Musashi, Sun Tzu or especially Mas Oyama before they've at least faced their fears and got themselves fit.
As for the 5th Dan youtube fiasco we had an expression at work that covers it, "We need people like that to keep the flies off the rest of us".
Gary
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curlbroscience
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Art?
Oct 25, 2013 11:08:07 GMT -5
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Post by curlbroscience on Oct 25, 2013 11:08:07 GMT -5
There are unanswered questions and blanket statements that can be made due to the relationship of teacher and student. Is that the art or martial side? Perhaps the fault lies in the way that Karate was packaged to the general mass populous in Japan. Questions are not answered because they don't have answers that can be pointed directly back to the founders.
A lot of importance is placed on lineage and 'doing it the way they did it.' "That's the way they do it in Japan!" was a common answer given to some of the weird things we had to do. Not saying that it's ineffective. How about we start training in ways that make sense, call it "Curl Bro-ha" or "Meguro-ha" and stop relying on glory of past masters to give validity to the way we do things.
Perhaps it's also a matter of if it works for him, it can work for me with a dash of longing to find the rhyme and reason for those long hours and years of open air kata training.
The original founders trained kata technique as hard and as often on the toe kick mae geri and nukite as today's K-1/Knockdown/Muay Thai fighters do their shins and mawashi geri. Maybe nukite is just a placeholder for knives.
Either way, I think we can take a cue from the sport side and stop using past glory. We are responsible for now. Results come from sensible and effective training methods.
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Art?
Oct 26, 2013 5:44:42 GMT -5
Post by meguro on Oct 26, 2013 5:44:42 GMT -5
There is no question in my mind that all the martial arts in Asia (possibly the world) are closely related. What's interesting about training styles like Silat, kuntao and Kali, is I , as a beginner, was not exposed to any magic like Ki, or told that this or that way is the traditional method. I was taught from the beginning the reason behind every step or maneuver is based on body mechanics, leverage and position. It is almost like origami, only you are folding the human body instead of paper. I can see the art in that! With karate, it seems that the founders either hid the meaning too well from their students, or never got the complete lessons from the Chinese fisherman or other foreigner they like to trace their roots to. It is as if they used their rank or tradition to cover their ignorance, and then this dumbed down version was passed on to us. Now, I like competition. It improves knockdown karate. It is the way kata is treated that really gets me going. But you guys already knew that. On the nukite as a stand in for a knife or other weapon, most definitely. When working a simple combination in Silat (parry and punch to the face), the combination will be practiced with many other strikes ( vertical elbow, horizontal elbow, palm heel, hammer fist, nukite to the eyes). There seems to be an obsessive literalness to how traditional karateka approach awkward movements, like missing the humor or metaphorical speech in a foreign language. The term "art" is then used to soothe the cognitive dissonance one feels about the funny karate. I say trust your instincts. If something seems a bit off, it probably is. Don't just call it art. Look into it, there might be some truth there if you dig a little bit below the surface.
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GJEC
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Art?
Oct 26, 2013 6:12:30 GMT -5
Post by GJEC on Oct 26, 2013 6:12:30 GMT -5
It is as if they used their rank or tradition to cover their ignorance, and then this dumbed down version was passed on to us. In Kyokushin in the early years kata was never a strong point, it was done like a string of basics - as hard as possible - with no subtlety or hidden meaning. So when bunkai started to become popular and students asked more questions instructors put their own spin on things to fill the gap. In my opinion that was a huge mistake, as anyone with any practical experience could tell immediately that most of these made-up applications were at best tricky and at worst dangerous. Someone should've had the balls to say "Kyokushin is not a kata based style, we test stuff by knocking people down". So the 'art' part of Kyokushin is (in my opinion) something that has been added in later. Why, I'm not sure, except perhaps to keep people who want to believe there are easier ways to win. In my early training the thought of being artistic or spiritually uplifted never even occurred to me. I wanted to be tougher and I wanted to win. I'm sure from conversations I had at the time that most of my opponents felt the same. Gary
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Oct 26, 2013 6:48:23 GMT -5
Post by meguro on Oct 26, 2013 6:48:23 GMT -5
In Kyokushin in the early years kata was never a strong point, it was done like a string of basics - as hard as possible - with no subtlety of hidden meaning. So when bunkai started to become popular and students asked more questions instructors put their own spin on things to fill the gap. In my opinion that was a huge mistake, as anyone with any practical experience could tell immediately that most of these made-up applications were at best tricky and at worst dangerous. Someone should've had the balls to say "Kyokushin is not a kata based style, we test stuff by knocking people down". So the 'art' part of Kyokushin is (in my opinion) something that has been added in later. Why, I'm not sure, except perhaps to keep people who want to believe there are easier ways to win. In my early training the thought of being artistic or spiritually uplifted never even occurred to me. I wanted to be tougher and I wanted to win. I'm sure from conversations I had at the time that most of my opponents felt the same. Gary I totally get your point of view, Gary. This is the way Kyokushin was, and is today. This is what I enjoyed about Kyokushin, especially in Japan where there are more guys my size to compete with. . All my ideas about exercise are for this type karate. If Kyokushin never had any kata at all, I would have no basis for complaint and would not love Kyokushin any less. But, since Kyokushin does have kata, I have to say the big guys at the top of the orgs have got a little homework to do. I admire folks like Ashira, Ninomiya, and Shigeru Oyama for developing their own kata instead of passing on things which had no meaning for them.
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GJEC
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Oct 26, 2013 6:58:05 GMT -5
Post by GJEC on Oct 26, 2013 6:58:05 GMT -5
The Enshin kata are extremely useful for helping people understand the subtlety required in sabaki. They can be done 'hard' against pad holders or almost aikido like to feel the leverage and body movement required.
Strangely enough I do see them as genuinely artistic as well as practical. When Kancho Ninomiya does them they have a real purpose and intent I have rarely seen in the traditional kata.
Gary
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Oct 26, 2013 7:20:26 GMT -5
Post by meguro on Oct 26, 2013 7:20:26 GMT -5
What I am really enjoying now about my sojourn in Silat is that the very technical applications are tied in intimately with striking, position and leverage. You practice to get all the elements aligned with a partner. The partner is a feedback mechanism. If he goes down or taps out you know you got it right. This approach would go along way to improving karate as an art.
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GJEC
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Oct 26, 2013 9:27:13 GMT -5
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Post by GJEC on Oct 26, 2013 9:27:13 GMT -5
What I am really enjoying now about my sojourn in Silat is that the very technical applications are tied in intimately with striking, position and leverage. You practice to get all the elements aligned with a partner. The partner is a feedback mechanism. If he goes down or taps out you know you got it right. This approach would go along way to improving karate as an art. It's hard to think of anything non 'martial' where the training is so technical yet the application sought is so simple. As you write above, training 'as you apply it' just makes so much sense. Gary
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Oct 26, 2013 15:11:22 GMT -5
Post by hokuto12 on Oct 26, 2013 15:11:22 GMT -5
That is why in the end I left Aikido as you are training and the uke is just moving for the sake of moving so you don't get to know if it works or not. There were even some ukes that were moving to the next position before you have even done the move. Not to mention they were like this is how you punch. I just looked at them and was like you can't be serious if I punched like that I would be knocked out half way through the punch. The scary thing is there was so many people that think that is the way to train and that if you are going to train like that when it gets serious you will be in trouble. My first lesson of Judo after Aikido was so much different and an eye opener when you had to get the technique right as the uke wasn't going to move just for you to feel good.
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on Oct 28, 2013 5:23:36 GMT -5
I smile at threads on other forums where they blame the downfall of traditional standards on modern SPORT karate. Is it just me? Am I the only one that has watched grainy video's of original karate sparring and thought they were crap.? We should celebrate improvement and the pursuit of excellence, not stay forever in the shadow of times past. Onwards and upwards.
I'm proud to have trained in a modern combat SPORT. It taught me a lot about myself and the benefits carried over into life in general and got me out of some sticky situations.
We are knockdownfighters.com. Knockdown has rules so it's a SPORT. If you've stepped up and had a go, be proud of yourself.
Gary
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curlbroscience
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Oct 28, 2013 12:22:28 GMT -5
Post by curlbroscience on Oct 28, 2013 12:22:28 GMT -5
In Kyokushin in the early years kata was never a strong point, it was done like a string of basics - as hard as possible - with no subtlety or hidden meaning. Possibly the inclusion of art is due in part to the wrong approach to kata as a physical exercise? I too would look at that and think pad/bag work were better way to string basics and hit as hard as possible. I don't believe Kata to be art and the critique of kata as an art form is pointless. If the point being made is an inch movement in technique effectiveness, why not demonstrate on a partner practice a la BJJ rolling? The movement could be more obvious in that way. However if the inch movement critique helps to enrich the extraction of lessons through kata is valuable. I learned that in Seiyunchin the transition from uchi uke gedan barai to shiko dachi shita tsuki involves a mid step in han zenkutsu dachi. I had been practicing it as a step from fudo dachi to shiko dachi. The minor trans from zenkutsu to shiko lends to the shift in weight from front to rear allowing for more weight behind the shita. Sort of like the weight transfer of the hook behind a cross, rather than weight shift of a same hand jab, hook. Practicing the kata should be a text book review of what you practice in class with a partner. Transitive properties. I think Dan John mentions that quite a bit. Using lessons and ideas from other parts of practice to speed up others, etc. or is that accumulation? Perhaps we should have more oyo and less traditional bunkal. Stuff that makes sense in the heat of pressure and that can be easily tested with different formats of sparring to include grapping/pinning arms, catching/holding kicks, and clinching that open up standing chokes, dirty boxing and ground wrasslin'. I've been trying to look for readily available MMA format sparring that is safe and allows for grappling. One option I thought had merit was a 16oz gloved rear hand and 4oz glove lead hand. Oh to have padded walls and floors.
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Oct 28, 2013 19:33:07 GMT -5
Post by meguro on Oct 28, 2013 19:33:07 GMT -5
. . .If the point being made is an inch movement in technique effectiveness, why not demonstrate on a partner practice a la BJJ rolling? Good question! Position, balance and timing have significance only when there is a live opponent opposite you. This is why all that time trying to get kata to look pretty is wasted effort. When you practice a lunging step in silat, your aim is to land your foot on top of your partner's foot, or directly beside or behind. When you execute a hip throw, you want your belt below your opponent's. When you execute a foot sweep, you time it to your opponent's step. Because people vary in size and how they move, you are much better off practicing your technique on as many different people as possible, than against the ever constant invisible man of kata. Karate can be beautiful, as in well executed technique. In that sense we can call it art. I just don't want the term art to cover for nonsense.
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Oct 29, 2013 3:33:54 GMT -5
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Post by meguro on Oct 29, 2013 3:33:54 GMT -5
In another thread at another forum, a point was raised about whether complexity or simplicity is preferred in fighting applications. I think this reflects a misunderstanding of fighting ranges. This misunderstanding underpins the gross misinterpretation of kata applications which then leads to fuzziness and art. It is not about choosing simple or complex, it is about choosing the right tools for the range.
The dominant kicker will keep the fight at his preferred range and score a knockdown/ or knockout with a kick. The dominant puncher will try to fight at a closer range. Each fighter uses the appropriate technique in the given range, to do otherwise invites trouble. Traditional kata applications are usually meant for closer than punching range where there are many more targets, and consequently many more technique.
Among the many additional technique, some might point to Aikido. While I appreciate the insight Aikido provides on joint manipulation, I dislike the way the training is conducted: regimented; sterile; ceremonial. I also dislike the way wrists are offered up to be twisted. It doesn't work that way in real life. You do not grab on to the business end of a spear, sword or knife, you have got to work further up the chain which also means inside the arc of that weapon. The same is true for bare handed fighting. You shouldn't grab at the wrists in a fist fight, you'll get punched out for trying. You get closer and control the elbow or shoulder first.
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GJEC
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Oct 29, 2013 9:54:53 GMT -5
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Post by GJEC on Oct 29, 2013 9:54:53 GMT -5
I love this topic. Martial 'art' value or lack of it depends on your starting point. If your goal is SP the possibilities of good kata interpretations may be more important. If your goal is sport rather less so. If your goal is fitness big movements done hard are going to use more calories ...
So is there a common thread that gives us the most benefit per hour invested? I think that as the sport angle requires fitness and impact that gives us a good grounding for SP. I found that the most useful and efficient way to target my training but fully understand others coming from the other direction. The end goal is excellence and there are many ways to express that, perhaps none senior to the other.
Gary
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