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Post by Ros on Feb 17, 2015 3:38:09 GMT -5
I know like you Gary that no one is doing the kinds of things that were being done 30 years ago in the course of normal training . From some of the stories I've heard, this is a good thing!
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Post by senshido on Feb 17, 2015 3:50:42 GMT -5
I know, when I first went on a Sports Council run course, I couldn't believe that all the exercises I was currently doing in my training were labelled as contra-indicated, i.e. bad for you... I suppose like everything else Health and Safety is dictating what we now do
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on Feb 17, 2015 4:13:42 GMT -5
I had the same in the 80's at a course at Loughborough University. I was loosening up with a few ke-ages and the tutor was horrified.
He couldn't tie his shoelaces but apparently I was wrong.
Gary
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Post by meguro on Feb 17, 2015 6:46:30 GMT -5
He couldn't tie his shoelaces but apparently I was wrong. The difference between theory and practice.
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Post by Ros on Feb 17, 2015 9:34:50 GMT -5
I know, when I first went on a Sports Council run course, I couldn't believe that all the exercises I was currently doing in my training were labelled as contra-indicated, i.e. bad for you... I suppose like everything else Health and Safety is dictating what we now do I kinda think that as we're (well, not me at the moment, admittedly) participating in a hobby/sport with a reasonably high chance of injury at some point, then why increase the risk by doing exercises that are contra-indicated? I'm all for evidence-based safety dictating training.
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on Feb 17, 2015 11:52:27 GMT -5
It's how they harvest the 'evidence' that concerns me.
If an exercise is beneficial to hundreds no one logs how many times it is done, but if it hurts one person it can suddenly become 'blacklisted'. Yet this is flawed thinking. Maybe an investigation would show the injured person was doing things incorrectly or had an underlying problem etc.
We had the same in the Fire Brigade. Drills that had been done at the double for years were suddenly reduced to walking pace if someone messed up and had an accident. Yet at fires we were still required to do things at a run ...
Common sense and experience can be a better measure than simple injury stats.
Gary
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Post by slaine on Feb 17, 2015 13:26:52 GMT -5
I know like you Gary that no one is doing the kinds of things that were being done 30 years ago in the course of normal training . From some of the stories I've heard, this is a good thing! Yes and no , sports science has come a long way so apparently we do things better now in regards to how we treat our bodies but in relation to the training we did back then I found it very beneficial to the young boy / teenager I was and it helped shape me for the better in those formative years , yes we had sadists that obviously enjoyed pummeling the crap out of young boys but that's an issue they have to deal with and on the whole my training buddies were great and in particular my instructors were incredible , so would I change any of it if I could , no not a bit I loved it .
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Post by MMX on Feb 17, 2015 15:15:38 GMT -5
It also seems to come full circle. Barbell training was the rage in the early 20th century and then by the 1980's it was all machines and junk. Then in the early 21st century Barbell training is back and promoted as better.
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on Feb 18, 2015 7:16:47 GMT -5
I know some of the fittest and most flexible people I've trained with did exercises I'd never ask anyone to do today.
I well remember sitting with my feet pulled in towards the groin while an adult stood on my knees. The pain was like being cut with a hot knife as I literally felt muscle and bone seperate. My side kicks have been decidedly average ever since.
These days there'd be a claim going in ...
Gary
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Post by slaine on Feb 18, 2015 8:30:59 GMT -5
I well remember sitting with my feet pulled in towards the groin while an adult stood on my knees. The pain was like being cut with a hot knife as I literally felt muscle and bone seperate. My side kicks have been decidedly average ever since. These days there'd be a claim going in ... Gary I remember that exercise very well as well as having your kicking legs pushed further than they should go in the yoko and mae ke age positions .
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Post by MMX on Feb 18, 2015 11:21:34 GMT -5
I know some of the fittest and most flexible people I've trained with did exercises I'd never ask anyone to do today. I well remember sitting with my feet pulled in towards the groin while an adult stood on my knees. The pain was like being cut with a hot knife as I literally felt muscle and bone seperate. My side kicks have been decidedly average ever since. These days there'd be a claim going in ... Gary Yes and in that case those are very bad.That actually tears tendon and muscle. Pavel explains why that does not work for the long term in his book "Relax into Stretch" and Tom Kurz in his Stretching Scientifically.
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Post by Ros on Feb 19, 2015 3:14:28 GMT -5
It's how they harvest the 'evidence' that concerns me. If an exercise is beneficial to hundreds no one logs how many times it is done, but if it hurts one person it can suddenly become 'blacklisted'. Yet this is flawed thinking. Maybe an investigation would show the injured person was doing things incorrectly or had an underlying problem etc. Of course, and sport and fitness (and diet) seems to be particularly prone to woo-meisters of all shades. But knowledge and 'proper' evidence increases all the time - the difficulty (as always) is assessing who really is an expert.
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on Feb 19, 2015 4:23:00 GMT -5
Martial Arts have a well trodden route there.
In some sports you learn HOW to do it, but in harsh combat sport you learn how NOT to alongside.
I prefer that. Good coaching may be showing people how to do it, but being able to talk from experience about things that hurt or went badly is pretty helpful as well.
Gary
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Post by meguro on Feb 20, 2015 18:38:30 GMT -5
This is traditional karate youtu.be/qEvfTXbKe8s. I think it's pretty obvious why it wouldn't work in the ring. Traditional karate is the plowshare that used to be a sword.
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on Feb 21, 2015 3:33:14 GMT -5
If something doesn't work in a controlled environment it is unlikely to work in a confused one.
Let's use a simple progression:
1) Unable to cope with violence 2) Able to cope with limited violence (combat sport) 3) Able to cope with unlimited violence
So we have two schools of thought:
One swears that step 2 is a distraction that may get you into trouble if faced with step 3. One feels that step 2 teaches things that will help in step 3.
I favour the second route, probably because training at work went from basic drills to scenario based drills to firefighting. Everyone knew that scenario based drills were not the real thing. They were done on a concrete drill yard with adequate water supplies and safe places to pitch ladders etc. But the tasks changed without notice to foster the ability to adapt and think clearly under pressure. This transferred across to the real thing.
Gary
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