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Post by Tay on Aug 7, 2015 11:06:01 GMT -5
I don't see why we are looking for people who've crossed over form Karate and become successful in the Ring when there is no reason for those people to exist. I'd agree that for a keen martial artist its interesting to dabble. With the likes of Hug etc these reference the very start of K1, literal K1 was built around those fighters disappointed by the way the World Tournaments were being run and wanted to earn money as fighters. MMA drew in fighters from all styles as the start as there were no MMA gyms - now there are, why study karate if you want to be a cage fighter? Challenging oneself in different rulesets is a proof of your abilities as a martial artist. It also shows how good the techniques you learnt are against someone else who might have trained different techniques from other martial arts. I'm sure you remember the quote by Mas Oyama "The heart of our karate is real fighting. There can be no proof without real fighting. Without proof there is no trust. Without trust there is no respect. This is a definition in the world of Martial Arts." Seeing other Kyokushin Karateka being successful in fight sports like K-1 or MMA shows that what we are training is effective and a great base to fight with. The same cannot be said about many other martial arts. It is more of a proof than just trusting that what you have learnt is effective, or only having put it to the test in one format of rules (for example knockdown). Of course knockdown fighting is a great proof that you can fight, but is it really enough of a proof that you can handle most fight situations? (especially when the format we compete under has many limitations of rules). What I find interesting is that in some Amateur MMA in the UK no head shots are allowed so I'd have thought learning to land body shots and leg kicks would be advantageous.... any instructors out there approached an MMA gym and offered their services? There seems to be a few MMA gyms with Kyokushin classes: www.londonshootfighters.com/classes/
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Post by Ros on Aug 7, 2015 11:27:21 GMT -5
I actually use pi a lot as I have to work of volumetric flows to avoid or create turbulent flow.... but the point was when it comes to fighting I don't see a need for complexity. Oops, ha ha, I wasn't implying that you thought pi was useless - just carrying on the analogy! Maybe when it comes to actual fighting there is no need for complexity, but I would argue that when it comes to learning to fight and honing your skills to fight, then you do need a reasonably large set of tools (hey, let's continue those analogies to have something, to, well, hone! Once you get to a level where you are well versed and practiced in the application of each different tool, then you know which tool suits each particular job; both for you and for the situation, opponent and location. As someone once said, if you only have a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. I do agree with Meguro, you do see it a lot in knockdown: toe-to-toe fighting, punch, punch, low kick, low kick and ending up being who can take the most punishment. I'm probably seeing this as less of a good thing now that I'm no longer an *ahem* robust person and am not up for taking a lot of punishment. I'm thinking its surely gotta be better to not be there in the first place! I tend to agree that you probably wouldn't study karate if you wanted to be a cage fighter; but martial arts are generally not in isolation to each other. I think there's lots of cross-over between different disciplines; I think Meguro has described some of his experiences in this before.
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tmd
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Think Fast Hit hard
Posts: 242
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Post by tmd on Aug 7, 2015 11:44:29 GMT -5
The London shoot fighters are a great example of a top fighting gym. they competed at the IKO1 champs last year and did very well.
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Post by slaine on Aug 7, 2015 14:36:11 GMT -5
You can have all the tools in the shed and know how to use them well but a quick hard punch in the face can resign them all to the toolbox , I believe in keeping it simple and to hand plus I'm referring specifically to SD here .
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Post by meguro on Aug 8, 2015 21:43:04 GMT -5
. . . What I find interesting is that in some Amateur MMA in the UK no head shots are allowed so I'd have thought learning to land body shots and leg kicks would be advantageous.... any instructors out there approached an MMA gym and offered their services? youtu.be/qGWHGJrmYD4
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Post by Ros on Aug 10, 2015 1:25:23 GMT -5
You can have all the tools in the shed and know how to use them well but a quick hard punch in the face can resign them all to the toolbox , I believe in keeping it simple and to hand plus I'm referring specifically to SD here . Or alternatively, you can be great at one or two simple techniques, but a quick, hard <insert technique> to the <insert sensitive body part> can make them all redundant. If you knew how to use the tools in your toolbox well, the attempted punch in the face wouldn't have been successful. I'm not suggesting that a spinning back kick should be your go to SD technique, but by your argument, you would only ever learn punching to to the face and avoiding a punch to the face.
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Post by slaine on Aug 10, 2015 10:18:34 GMT -5
It's funny you should say that as of all the lads I've worked with over the years and have relied on for help when involved in an altercation it's the ones with a boxing background that have proved to be most proficient in dealing with a situation.
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on Aug 11, 2015 2:27:29 GMT -5
So why train in karate Slaine?
Believing in what you do is probably 80% of success, so if you doubt it, why do it?
Gary
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Post by Ros on Aug 11, 2015 8:34:27 GMT -5
I know like you Gary that no one is doing the kinds of things that were being done 30 years ago in the course of normal training . Are there any of those things that you think should be being done in normal training? I have to say from the stories I've heard, it's probably a good thing that they're not!
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Post by slaine on Aug 11, 2015 8:54:53 GMT -5
So why train in karate Slaine? Believing in what you do is probably 80% of success, so if you doubt it, why do it? Gary Good question Gary , I believe the dogma and the mindset associated with traditional martial arts and karate stunts ones ability to deal with physical confrontation opposed to those that train in other combat sports like boxing who seem to react instinctively , full contact styles deal with this issue better as we actively engage in physical fighting ( although it's controlled ) but I still had to purposely break a particular mindset I had when dealing with altercations and matters of personal safety that I found guys from other backgrounds ( as I said particularly boxing ) didn't seem to possess , I don't doubt what I do because I've made it work but I have serious reservations , and this is from personal experience , of people from traditional karate backgrounds being able to deal with violent physical confrontation .
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Post by slaine on Aug 11, 2015 9:06:33 GMT -5
I know like you Gary that no one is doing the kinds of things that were being done 30 years ago in the course of normal training . Are there any of those things that you think should be being done in normal training? I have to say from the stories I've heard, it's probably a good thing that they're not! On the specifics no but I think the training in general has become easier and I have to say softer ( especially for the younger students ) which is a reflection of how modern society feels it has to treat the youth of today to actually get them to engage in physical activity which is to our detriment I believe .
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azam
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Post by azam on Aug 11, 2015 15:02:53 GMT -5
By close range I mean within arms reach, not 2-8 meters apart like the amount average distancing and space available for movement in a cage fight or traditional karate match. I don't think that at close range grappling is superior to striking in terms of self protection. I also don't think that for self protection learning multiple ways of dealing with the same situation is advantageous, get a few ways that work for YOU and drill the hell out of them until they become instinctive and work under pressure - just as the maths students learns that once you can add 2 numbers together to make the total why complicate the equation using pi? I disagreed that knockdown is only a war, there are plenty who move exceptionally well - it is just that with good conditioning you can stay in close and at less risk of a head kick, so it is just a sports specific anomaly. As I stated before, why would you do karate if you wanted to compete in something else? It's not about the skills of one being non-transformable it's about why waste time learing Maths if want to study History? Even the knockdown tatami is 2-8 metres apart - it's just that most of the time that space is not used. The same goes for MMA & traditional karate much of the space avaliable is not used. The fundamentals of fighting and what also holds true for self defense also are control of distance, positioning, timing and technique imo. In knockdown karate today you dont see anyone attempting to control distance or jockey for better position before throwing strikes - most of them are willing to take a hit to get their strikes off. That in my opinion is the anti-thesis of fighting or even self defense - i.e. hit your opponent without getting hit. Sometimes you cant avoid getting hit but the goal should be not to get hit - not take a hit to give a hit - which is what a lot of modern knockdown now is all about - where the mentality & spirit is pushed forward at the expense of basic fundamentals. Both are equally important. Close range grappling is superior imho to close range striking, especially more so if you have no grappling experience. It is a lot harder to avoid a punch to the face from the close range of knockdown - since there is less time to react - there is a good valid reason why boxers attempt to jockey for better positions and why they use angles/distance instead of just going close range like knockdown and punching someone in the face - precisely because at that range it's not a measure of skill but how quickly you can react and that's a battle you might not necessarily win especially if your attacker takes the initiative. All those attributes used by boxers to hit & not get hit - are largely ignored in knockdown karate today - in the past it wasn't the case. What do you do if your few simple ways don't work on a particular occasion? You have nothing to fall back on. The beauty of learning multiple approaches to the same situation means that you always have something in the bag to fall on. I think the list of knockdown karateka who move well is a very short one - but it depends I guess on what you're perception of good movement means - for me it means controlling distance, superior positioning, angles etc - that's my criteria and very few people fit it. As for why would you want to do Karate if you want to compete in something else - Karate's competitive formats are made up. You can simply add a new competitive format and the Karate applied molds to it - then you wouldn't have that argument. Karate is a martial art that should be applicable to self defense/fighting regardless of rules. Karate shouldn't be bound by any specific sports format - it should be applicable to everything. Traditional karate often gets a lot of crap because it's not full contact the way knockdown is but everyone seems to forget that the content derives from traditional karate almost entirely. The only thing that is different is application - when traditional karate is applied to the MMA ruleset it works. When applied to kickboxing it can also work. I mean if you read Masatoshi Nakayama's books for example or watch the rare footage of him applying Karate - I challenge anyone to say that it's not effective or doesn't work in the ring - especially since I've seen many karateka actually use his stuff. I've seen footage of Gichin apply traditional boxing parries (extremely similar) that work also regardless of format. Osu!
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azam
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Post by azam on Aug 11, 2015 15:23:27 GMT -5
I actually use pi a lot as I have to work of volumetric flows to avoid or create turbulent flow.... but the point was when it comes to fighting I don't see a need for complexity. The reference to Maths and History is simply that I don't see why we are looking for people who've crossed over form Karate and become successful in the Ring when there is no reason for those people to exist. I'd agree that for a keen martial artist its interesting to dabble. With the likes of Hug etc these reference the very start of K1, literal K1 was built around those fighters disappointed by the way the World Tournaments were being run and wanted to earn money as fighters. MMA drew in fighters from all styles as the start as there were no MMA gyms - now there are, why study karate if you want to be a cage fighter? The other aspect to me is I hear a lot of Martial snobbery about fighters not being true martial artist so if I wanted to be a fighter and heard this kind of gibberish form a bunch of people who only trained a few hours a week I'd probably keep walking. What I find interesting is that in some Amateur MMA in the UK no head shots are allowed so I'd have thought learning to land body shots and leg kicks would be advantageous.... any instructors out there approached an MMA gym and offered their services? Ahh I hated that stuff when I did my engineering degree - felt like shooting myself lol. The analogy is wrong though. Martial arts are all relatable subjects - they are subjects that all deal with the same matter. They aren't different subjects. What do you mean there is no reason for those people to exist? The nature of martial arts is to dabble - nearly every style on this planet including Karate is a result of dabbling styles. All the founders of Karate dabbled. Karate is a composite of MMA. MMA is not a style it's merely a competitive format. Why study Karate if you want to cage fight? Karate doesn't have any specific competitive format - it's entirely made up. If you learn a karate that is applicable why not. There is a distinction though between a martial artist and a fighter. A martial artist might not necessarily enjoy fighting whereas a fighter definitely enjoys it. The distinction is often blurred in many combat sports but if you watch MMA or boxing - you'd see the distinction between the two. It's not just behaviour but mentality & approach. A good example of a martial artist to me are okinawan karateka that spend their whole lives training. It's always advantageous. But amateur MMA formats like that aren't a great stepping stone for professional MMA because including head shots makes a huge difference.
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on Aug 11, 2015 16:30:27 GMT -5
It's simple mathematics. Boxers train as hard and as long as karateka but have four basic punches to perfect. In a brawl those four should happen automatically.
Many karateka are convinced that more is better. They try to perfect dozens of skills and hope that they will instantly select the appropriate response from thousands.
Of course, some treat the multitude of skills as a useful resource and drill a few until - like the boxer - they fall instantly to hand.
Such people are dangerous and may have more options than simple jab, cross, hook and uppercut.
But, and it's a huge but. They must drill those few skills until they can't get them wrong, practice them under pressure and have faith in themselves.
Knowing 108 ways to kill someone with a spoon is useless unless you can find one when you need one ...
Gary
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Post by slaine on Aug 11, 2015 21:28:39 GMT -5
I think you've just proved my point Gary .
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