GJEC
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LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
Posts: 3,218
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Post by GJEC on Oct 31, 2015 2:19:25 GMT -5
Sadly,
People want to believe you can get something for nothing.
You learn by doing and you learn by getting put on your arse. You can't just do the fun bits.
Gary
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Post by powerof0ne on Nov 6, 2015 11:01:04 GMT -5
Man and woman eventually believe "their way" of doing kata is the right way. Who am I to argue this? The issue lies in those who are NOT qualified and experienced enough are sadly often times delusional enough to believe they're qualified to make changes to kata. Unfortunately those that are inexperienced, non-qualified and delusional enough to believe this generally seem to have the most students that do so which leads to very watered down kata.
Each style and fraction often times has its own emphasis on specific oyo, bunkai, speed, power, rhythm, enbusei, etc. A lot of this is why I now HATE kata in competition; I placed first in nationals as a teen for kata and trained a specific kata many hours for months leading up to that tournament. However, kata for competition to me is the same as having competition for a baseball player at a batting cage, football/soccer player having competition for passing drills, and so forth...or for me, having a competition for how quick I can break down one of my firearms and put it back together.
Is there skill required in kata? Absolutely! World level kata competitors are very very skilled at what they do; take a look at WKF kata world champions and if you are at all experienced in karate it's hard to argue such. However, can the same individual fight at the world level? Kata is meant as a tool to develop good karateka.
Do you believe Mabuni, Funakoshi, and the pioneers to karate before it was called karate would have honestly liked to see kata in tournaments as a competition?
With that being said I mean no disrespect and you're entitled to your opinion just as I am entitled to mine. There was a time I thought kata had a place in competition; there was also a time that I believed boxing was a horribly inferior way of fighting due to a sensei that somehow had me believing everything RIGHT and WRONG that he said.
Now, with that being said many years ago when I was 14-15 I competed in an open tournament with all styles and did a specific kata. Well, every judge but one gave me very high marks. The one judge who didn't came up and told me that I did the kata "wrong." Guess what? He did a Korean style that still used the Okinawan name of said kata but they did it their own way with a completely different type of kick than the ones I did. I was 14-15, so who was I to argue to an adult judge. Years later I realized how close minded and wrong he was. However, that's the thing; Man and Woman can and will make changes to kata...eventually.
So, to go back to the question; is what you are doing in the kata effective? Will it work? Does it actually make sense and most importantly; are you really experienced and qualified to even make such an analysis? Have you fought non compliantly and used such techniques against non resisting opponents, suspects, uke, etc.? Do you practice such techniques on others who practically throw and trip themselves for you? Osu!
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Post by meguro on Nov 7, 2015 3:33:00 GMT -5
If traditional kata were taught properly, any rank beginner would know that the application works. Think about how basic math is taught around the world. If teachers have done their job well, children can be as accurate as calculators for simple tasks. There is no need to resort to a high authority to render a judgement on 2+2=4. That multistriped black belts are required to tell you what is what, demonstrates that the system is built on unsound principles. The mind begs for an authority to say, "trust me it works," when your gut says,"not bloody likely."
Traditional kata, as it is commonly used, is an indoctrination tool. A good X-style karateka, does X-style kata. Kata can be a means to transmit information, so long as you understand the references and can bridge the gaps that short hand communication of necessity makes. The unlearned cannot learn by doing kata. That's like giving a 3 year old wooden blocks with letters and expecting her to deliver a sonnet the following week.
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GJEC
Member
LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
Posts: 3,218
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Post by GJEC on Nov 7, 2015 6:22:44 GMT -5
What? You are flying in the face of all the experts who can't fight sleep.
Bravo!
Fighting is where it's at, the chance to test your skills and your mettle. Obviously with rules as no one wants brain damage learning their skills.
But traditional kata making you awesome? Apart from the amusing fantasy stories of people defending themselves against a gang of skinheads just using Pinan San, I don't value it.
Gary
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residentrenzo
Member
The only way to overcome fear is through it, not around it.
Posts: 83
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Post by residentrenzo on Nov 8, 2015 0:06:38 GMT -5
OSU!
Been following this thread with keen interest. I'm asked to learn and train many kata, but after reading this, I confess sometimes I'm thinking "is doing this worthless or not? If so, why waste time on this?". Is kata practice sanything useful?
I could be wrong, maybe kata could be good for practicing dachi, and controlled breathing, therefore kata could function as a form of muscle conditioning? Perhaps Sanchin is good for controlling your breath when you're winded up and out of breath. Maybe kata could help you picture and memorise basic combinations kicks/punches?
BTW, Enshin keeps sounding better and better. No Enshin dojos here sadly. Considering getting some DVD's and maybe drilling some katas by myself.
OSU!
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Post by meguro on Nov 8, 2015 7:22:33 GMT -5
. . .Considering getting some DVD's and maybe drilling some katas by myself. OSU! If there is a takeaway lesson from this discussion, drilling katas by yourself is not it. The applications referred to in traditional kata are close in fighting technique, i.e. Clinching/ grappling range. Stances mean nothing if the opponent is out of your grasp, likewise the turns and fancy arm waving. Enshin, because it encourages grabbing, gives you an idea of how powerful a combination striking and manhandling skills can be. Combat sambo and Kudo are good. Muay Thai too, especially because of how you fight in the clinch. These systems emphasize partner work. Judo and BJJ will school you in close fighting, but you must augment such training with a striking art. Mike Tyson's, " everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the mouth," remains true.
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residentrenzo
Member
The only way to overcome fear is through it, not around it.
Posts: 83
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Post by residentrenzo on Nov 8, 2015 10:23:40 GMT -5
So if I understand this correctly, traditional kata practice is useless then? If so, I'd expect some kind of evolution/revolution to happen soon in MA systems. As for me, I'd question investing my time & strength which are limited, to work on stuff that keeps tradition alive but wouldn't improve my skills the way I want them to improve.
I have brown belt degree in Kyokushin, but striking from middle distance is not my forte. I'm more of an infighter/close fighting type due to my physical characteristics. Grappling, clinching and takedowns are what interest me now, unfortunately Kyokushin doesn't drill you much on that as I was told it did before. Many times I'm asking myself are these Pinan Kata "moves, grabs and throws" realistic and useable? I know I'd get some people p***ed off just by saying this!
No Enshin or Kudo in the country I live in. That's a pity because the more I hear about it, the more they interest me. Been considering cross training with judo next year but I'm scared of ruining my knees/joints. Muay Thai is kinda too hard for me (I'm 46, wouldn't want to press my luck). Still, I'd prefer Judo to BJJ (the latter being to slow & expensive for my situation).
I have to admit, sometimes training by oneself is the only available option to "not doing anything" due to lack of other MA.
Osu!
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Post by meguro on Nov 8, 2015 12:41:39 GMT -5
So if I understand this correctly, traditional kata practice is useless then? Not entirely useless. If you want a black belt in traditional karate you must know all the dances. Like I said, tool for indoctrination. If you believe thousands of repetitions of kata will make you a thousand times better than a fighter who did without, well that's magical thinking and I discourage it. Watching a video of one ice hockey fight will teach you all that the average person needs to know about fighting. However, close-in fighting, if you want to spice it up, also includes throws, joint destruction, chokes, neck cranks and even weapons. You need another warm body for this, not a dvd and mirror. I appreciate your concern about your age. I permanently damaged my wrist doing Judo in my 40's. Still, I recommend Judo, just make sure you are training on tatami laid over a suspended wooden floor and not wrestling mats laid over concrete. A good Judo dojo will teach you all you need to know about groundwork so if pressed for time and money, you can do without BJJ; besides if you throw someone hard enough on the street, they will not be in a mood to roll with you.
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GJEC
Member
LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
Posts: 3,218
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Post by GJEC on Nov 8, 2015 14:57:39 GMT -5
While I agree with meguro on practical points, a lot depends on your training goals.
If you simply want to learn skills for their own sake or to pass a promotion test, carry on. Solo practise can help.
If you want to be able to hold your own in a dojo, realistic kata practise with partners can get you used to non or limited compliance.
But if you want to batter a street assailant and escape, ditch the complex and just drill practical skills that are impossible to mess up and can be made ferocious.
Gary
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Post by powerof0ne on Nov 8, 2015 16:07:47 GMT -5
Watch the way Kazumi trains kata or better yet, Higaonna of Goju ryu. This is a much different way of practicing karate than what most to all knockdown styles do and what most Goju Ryu dojo do. I trained to shodan in Goju many years ago and I'll be honest to say the Goju that I did, did not do kata the way Higaonna and his black belts ("Dent") do their kata. However, many of Higaonna's students that reached various dan grades do much more than just train kata . The way Higaonna and his students train in karate do train in kata much differently than most that do karate do...just youtube Higaonna goju ryu and you will see what I mean. Now train in the average shito ryu, shotokan, shorin ryu, Kyokushin, etc. dojo and kata is done more as memorizing series of movements...perhaps as a "dance." Very little drilling of conditioning, bunkai, oyo, etc. is done with the kata. There isn't a deep analysis and understanding of the kata but memorizing the kata all for the sake of doing it "just because" and to move up in rank. Kata can be done the right way as a tool..but is done more often as a dance. Get the dance done and do it in a grading, perform all the dances and survive kumite you will probably get to 1st-2nd Dan in most karate styles. Easier said than done! However, there isn't a deeper study of kata done by most, and trained properly neither. Many that are firm believers in kata and every other ceremonial thing in karate being important will argue this . When I have graded my own students I care more about how they do in their kihon, renraku/ido geiko, and most importantly...their kumite over kata. With that being said, I do believe kata can be very useful but isn't practiced properly by most. As times moves on, the battlefield changes, and tools should also change along with the battlefield needs. However, that's just my opinion and one that I personally believe in. I'll stick to knife fighting, using my kubotan, pad work, hitting a heavy bag, hitting the makiwara and kumite as my focus of training. I personally find kihon more important than I find kata . Funny thing is I read this after posting it and it could come off as if I hate karate which is the furthest thing from the truth. I just believe it took me too many years to figure out how to focus on what's important and actually works. Karate is my foundation and always will be. Osu!
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Post by meguro on Nov 9, 2015 3:57:29 GMT -5
I actually took a couple of Kazumi's classes when I was a green belt. Kazumi gave me pointers on how to pose while doing the Pinans. No detail on applications, just the dance. Of course this was when he was still a member of IKO1. He soon after left the org to pursue his own karate. I have trained with Dent as well as spending many hours over beers discussing how karate might be improved. He has a very deep respect for Higaona. The problem with dance-centric kata training is that there are way more technique than kata, yet the emphasis is spent on making the dances look just right. It's like repainting the exterior of a building over and over while the foundation crumbles and the plumbing and electrical systems fall below code. You end up with something that looks pretty but doesn't work as well as you might expect.
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Post by meguro on Nov 9, 2015 4:14:46 GMT -5
. . . As times moves on, the battlefield changes, and tools should also change along with the battlefield needs. However, that's just my opinion and one that I personally believe in. I'll stick to knife fighting, using my kubotan, pad work, hitting a heavy bag, hitting the makiwara and kumite as my focus of training. I personally find kihon more important than I find kata . Funny thing is I read this after posting it and it could come off as if I hate karate which is the furthest thing from the truth. I just believe it took me too many years to figure out how to focus on what's important and actually works. Karate is my foundation and always will be. Osu! Karate is an itch that can't be scratched (in my case). I hope I'll never need to use it for real. If I lived somewhere where such a possibility is more likely than remote, I might train something else. Have you ever considered practical shooting competitions, Po1?
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residentrenzo
Member
The only way to overcome fear is through it, not around it.
Posts: 83
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Post by residentrenzo on Nov 9, 2015 9:21:41 GMT -5
I really dunno, haven't checked out judo dojos now, but it will probably be the latter The former being a luxury seen in wealthy dojos. The latter a common sight here. I'd watch a brawl during a soccer match instead. Fit, athletic guys, no pads, sticks or masks, going at each other barehanded with generous verbal abuse and plenty of primal rage. IMO doesn't get more realistic than that. Even the fans having a go at each other makes for a rather educational experience in street brawling. I agree on "warm body over DVDs". Well learned lessons learned that way. When I did realistic jiujitsu at my dojo I broke a bone on my left foot. Realised a valuable lesson, training safe is very important! OSU!
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azam
Member
Posts: 79
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Post by azam on Nov 9, 2015 15:51:45 GMT -5
Interesting discussion!
Thought I'd chime in.
What I've learnt from research into the topic is: there is no right or wrong way to do kata and it depends on what you want to get out of it.
For some the emphasis is on the spirit/aesthetics - this what you generally see in kata tournaments and from instructors/styles that have this goal in mind with the way they teach kata. In my honest opinion - it's just a beautiful piece of choreography with no substance.
I think that part of the issue is that the founders of Karate or their students over complicated kata without necessarily thinking in foresight that there students would complicate matters more.
Also the founders themselves heavily modified the original forms they were taught.
Chojun Miyagi for example modified Sanchin - the original version of Sanchin is the Uechi ryu version. Sanchin was originally done with open hands however Miyagi changed this to a closed fist (I can understand why he did this) and in the process changed the way the breathing was done.
A better example is Uechi ryu. Originally Uechi ryu only had 3 katas - Sanchin, Seisan & Sanseru. These were the only 3 forms ever taught by the founder Kanbun Uechi. Another 5 additional kata were created after his death by his son - as bridged katas - to help supplement the original 3.
Kata have a history of being constantly adapted and changed. I don't think there is anything wrong with finding your own meaning from kata - in fact I think this is just a continuation - it's meant to be adapted to the needs of the time. Even the founders - Miyagi, Funakoshi, Mabuni, Uechi etc etc all adapted kata their own way.
I like the work Ian Abernathy is doing - he stresses that it's his own take on kata. Although I'm not as fond with the bunkai - attempting to use those applications in actual self defense scenarios. I think it would be a lot more efficient/better to do simply do drills/freestyle kumite or put students into simulated aggressive situations and let them learn to how to deal with it.
I think also that some katas are higher up the must do list than others and aren't bunkai applications or dancing but actual training tools. Sanchin & Tensho in my eyes have virtually no bunkai application - Sanchin is basically hard Qigong and Tensho soft Qigong. I think they are kata that still apply today and should be done regularly. Although you could equally do yoga and not do Sanchin/Tensho & still derive the same benefits.
I think it has already been mentioned but whatever you do with kata depends on your goals. If your goal is aesthetics and your kata training is achieving that goal then you're doing what you set out to do.
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Post by meguro on Nov 10, 2015 15:52:00 GMT -5
Interesting discussion! Thought I'd chime in. What I've learnt from research into the topic is: there is no right or wrong way to do kata and it depends on what you want to get out of it. . . . Yes and no. It depends on one's perspective, of course. Not all perspectives are equal. Poor information can lead to bad choices. Which perspectives are better and why? Lineage, tracing back from present teacher to those before, is not the best method of determining value for the simple reason that the founder could have been wrong. Better than lineage is comparing movement patterns in common with other arts and seeing how closely they work with/accommodate/destroy the human body, particularly the joints. In conjunction with this, one must compare the level of detail and reliance on woo. The more woo and the fewer details, the more you should suspect bs. Fighters are practical people, freight your training with woo, and you will likely lose. That kata are adapted or changed to fit modern times demonstrates a profound lack of understanding of the kata. Times may change, but the form of the human body does not, and that is what we are dealing with. (This is not to say that new kata cannot be invented, of course they can.)
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