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Post by MMX on Jan 6, 2015 10:56:51 GMT -5
FROM meguroWhich brings me to kata (surprise). What kind of feedback do you expect from doing all those repetitions of kata? How do you know what you are doing is doing anything? |
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Post by MMX on Jan 6, 2015 10:59:37 GMT -5
Very interesting.
In Kyokushin I had no idea really other than what the Sensei told me and that was not much.
In ENSHIN you get lots of feedback (depending on your dojo but for the most part...) since our Kata is based on Jissen or real fighting technique. I know exactly what each move is for or how it can be modified to suit another application. At our dojo we routinely practice the kata with a partner so that it is easier to visualize what you are doing. Hard to learn how to throw from just the Kata alone but with a partner it becomes a skill you can easily learn.
Osu!
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GJEC
Member
LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
Posts: 3,218
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Post by GJEC on Jan 6, 2015 12:53:38 GMT -5
I see kata as a toolbox. No amount of examining tools and practising 'sawing thin air' or 'chiseling thin air' will ever take the place of actually using them.
So having a partner in front (as in Enshin) makes all the difference.
As with all skills we start slowly, add intensity, then pressure test. Some skills won't feel 'right' so we can ignore them when sparring. Others feel natural and fall easily to hand, so they become our tools of choice.
Gary
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Post by meguro on Jan 6, 2015 17:02:43 GMT -5
I just want to be clear that when I'm ranting about kata, Enshin is not in my line of sight. You guys know this of course, but if a stranger where to listen in on our conversation, who knows.  |
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Post by senshido on Jan 7, 2015 10:11:56 GMT -5
Kata for me is a way to practise my basics in a set form... I am not on a quest for hidden mystical stuff. And, guess what?.... I enjoy it! |
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Post by meguro on Jan 7, 2015 17:41:39 GMT -5
Basics, sure senshido, but what about those basics? The mystical stuff, IMO, was applied by instructors long ago who didn't know too much and therefore treated the stuff they didn't know as unknowable, or knowable only to the "worthy" after many years of repetition. And as for the basics, wouldn't they be better to practice with a partner? The kumite no kamae with arms forming shuto uke is as basic as it gets, traditionally it's just a pose with no apparent application, so how does one make it better? Actually there are applications, one of which is a side control/ takedown. One will only master this by working with many different partners. There is no feedback from the invisible man.
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Post by MMX on Jan 7, 2015 18:35:29 GMT -5
I think the "secrets" of the old kata are just that. Lost. People have interpreted them and tweaked them over the years but as for their original purpose we may never know.
I sure would love it if somewhere there was a written book of them from back then. Just hiding away. Just to see what they meant. Heck it could all be hogwash as far as we know and just a calisthenics program..
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Post by meguro on Jan 8, 2015 2:02:08 GMT -5
I don't think they were lost so much as never learned by early shotokan karateka, and this ignorance spread as the popularity of Shotokan grew (a martial art made safe for the practice of children and promoted as a character development exercise). As for original purpose, there are many styles that continue to use, teach, practice applications which resemble, in broad strokes, traditional karate kata moves and poses. The test of whether one application is more valid than another should not rest on an individual authority or tradition, but rather the biomechanical soundness of the technique. Any sort of fuzziness or mysticism ought to be dismissed right away, the same should be said for basic technique that are not actually used in competition (rising block against face punches for example). The idea of using low stances only to promote leg strength is pure baloney. Low stances are used in grappling all the time because they provide an advantage, just like slightly taller stances give an advantage to strikers. Once you introduce the idea that lower stances have applications beyond leg strength development, one must accept that grappling technique, and with that take-downs and joint destruction are also part of the package. There is absolutely no reverse engineering here, just peeking over the divider into the next cubicle.
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Post by senshido on Jan 8, 2015 3:29:53 GMT -5
And as for the basics, wouldn't they be better to practice with a partner? Sure its better to practice with a partner, but that's not always an option. Partner Practice is another aspect of what we do. If I am working to a syllabus I have to practice the kata they way it is required in that syllabus, something as I said before, I enjoy. That's not to say I don't enjoy "looking into" the kata as well. By looking in to, I don't mean for mystical stuff that isn't there, I mean by trying to adapt what is there to make it work. We do however practice a lot of "non-syllabus" stuff as well which is the take-downs, joint destruction etc. etc. |
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Post by slaine on Jan 8, 2015 7:56:47 GMT -5
Kata for me is a way to practise my basics in a set form... I am not on a quest for hidden mystical stuff. And, guess what?.... I enjoy it! Have to agree , kata is just the syllabus in motion nothing too technical and nothing too mystical and if you can draw things from that practice that you can use in your SD training all the better but don't rely on kata for all the answers that's the bluff the bunkai pedlars use. |
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Post by meguro on Jan 14, 2015 6:32:05 GMT -5
Kata is the box your tools are stored in. You can see your tools in there, and imagine what they might be used for, but until you unpack the box and put all the tools to use, everything looks like a hammer.
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Post by senshido on Jan 14, 2015 8:22:26 GMT -5
Kata is the box your tools are stored in. You can see your tools in there, and imagine what they might be used for, but until you unpack the box and put all the tools to use, everything looks like a hammer. I like that analogy although I must admit to being a bit of a hammer man!!  |
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Post by meguro on Jan 14, 2015 9:13:26 GMT -5
Kata is the box your tools are stored in. You can see your tools in there, and imagine what they might be used for, but until you unpack the box and put all the tools to use, everything looks like a hammer. I like that analogy although I must admit to being a bit of a hammer man!! Nothing wrong with bashing! It works well within a certain range. A bit closer, or a bit farther away and other things in the tool box show their worth. |
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Post by slaine on Jan 14, 2015 12:23:58 GMT -5
Kata is the box your tools are stored in. You can see your tools in there, and imagine what they might be used for, but until you unpack the box and put all the tools to use, everything looks like a hammer. I like that analogy although I must admit to being a bit of a hammer man!! Ha ha , better still don't confuse yourself by looking in the toolbox keep it closed and just throw it at the problem  . |
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GJEC
Member
LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
Posts: 3,218
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Post by GJEC on Jan 14, 2015 13:08:25 GMT -5
My goal is to understand the capabilities and limitations of every tool, then keep the most useful ones close to hand and very well maintained. My wife just uses a shoe heel as a hammer and a knife as a screwdriver, then calls me to repair the damage.  Gary |
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