wullie
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I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, there's no way you can prove anything!
Posts: 725
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Post by wullie on Mar 4, 2014 14:35:10 GMT -5
Was asked today why I bother with a style of karate that "Doesn't do head punches", my reply of we do them but just not in that competition rule set was met with "but is not any good for self defence is it?" to which i told them "page one of the syllabus contains two different ways to kick someone in the nuts", this was met with a slack jawed look and no further questions. Check and mate!
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GJEC
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LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
Posts: 3,218
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Post by GJEC on Mar 4, 2014 15:15:54 GMT -5
Well played Wullie.
What these questioners fail to realise is punching a few degrees higher is no real challenge.
I practise grabbing with my left and punching repeatedly to the jawline with my right. Both in Enshin. Both effective.
Gary
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Post by MMX on Mar 4, 2014 15:27:16 GMT -5
Get them to do a round or two of kumite and they will change their mind about how good it is for self defense I say.
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Post by meguro on Mar 4, 2014 17:42:14 GMT -5
Of course I agree, gentlemen. But for the fun of it, I will play devil's advocate. It's not so much the punching that concerns me. I think we can hit whatever it is we set out to hit. No, the problem with not training head punches, is being less adept at dealing with punches directed at our heads. Individual aptitude plays a role in this, but it should be obvious that some direct training would silence the critics.
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Post by MMX on Mar 4, 2014 17:58:45 GMT -5
I guess it depends on the dojo. We do head punch training about once a month in the advance class. Along with other nasty things..
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evergrey
Member
Get over yourself, mate.
Posts: 854
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Post by evergrey on Mar 4, 2014 18:17:34 GMT -5
There are knockdown dojos who DON'T do head punches ever? I mean sure we don't do them in tournaments, but... I've gone home with many a split lip, myself...
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wullie
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I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, there's no way you can prove anything!
Posts: 725
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Post by wullie on Mar 4, 2014 18:32:23 GMT -5
Of course I agree, gentlemen. But for the fun of it, I will play devil's advocate. It's not so much the punching that concerns me. I think we can hit whatever it is we set out to hit. No, the problem with not training head punches, is being less adept at dealing with punches directed at our heads. Individual aptitude plays a role in this, but it should be obvious that some direct training would silence the critics. my intention wasn't to start another of these type of discussions mate, it was more to do with the kicks to the nuts
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Post by meguro on Mar 4, 2014 19:09:50 GMT -5
Of course I agree, gentlemen. But for the fun of it, I will play devil's advocate. It's not so much the punching that concerns me. I think we can hit whatever it is we set out to hit. No, the problem with not training head punches, is being less adept at dealing with punches directed at our heads. Individual aptitude plays a role in this, but it should be obvious that some direct training would silence the critics. my intention wasn't to start another of these type of discussions mate, it was more to do with the kicks to the nuts I was searching for a clip of Bas Rutten's, you know the one. Honestly, I have studiously avoided kicking training partners and opponents in the nuts. When I did, I'd apologize profusely. I think because it is not a "game" approved target, the groin shot is not a skill I can claim as all of mine were accidental. I suppose we could all have saved a lot of time by just practicing the sucker punch and kick to the nuts.
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GJEC
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LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
Posts: 3,218
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Post by GJEC on Mar 5, 2014 2:23:04 GMT -5
We've got to separate the 'sport' from the 'self-defence' part. Too many look at the sport bit and think, "that wouldn't work in the street" - which makes as much sense as looking at an F1 car and bemoaning that there's nowhere for the shopping.
So what does work in the street and is there a crossover?
From sport we get fitness, self discipline, accuracy and impact. We get guts. When I've needed to make a point, those five have helped a great deal.
By contrast the RBSD I've trained in, with some very capable people, would have worked very well but sent me straight to jail. Soccer kicks, stomping fallen opponents etc etc. My fathers stuff was also very effective and next time I'm in a war zone and need to butcher someone I hope I remember it.
So I'm happy to train and coach 'just' a sport. Alongside that - as Wullie notes - all the 'nasty' skills required are in the syllabus and as long as we train properly, we should be well prepared.
Against an ambush or a gang though? Best not be there. Don't be an idiot and avoid places idiots hang out. That gets easier as you get older, I'm in bed by 10:30 these days ...
Gary
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Post by Ros on Mar 5, 2014 2:40:24 GMT -5
That gets easier as you get older, I'm in bed by 10:30 these days ... I just read this and thought "10:30? Oooh, that's late; way past my bedtime!"
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evergrey
Member
Get over yourself, mate.
Posts: 854
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Post by evergrey on Mar 5, 2014 3:52:31 GMT -5
Funny enough, we worked on a weird sort of hook/cross hybrid today that was great for snaking around someone's guard and punching them in the hinge of their jaw. Even practiced (gently) on one another.
As a nut-kick aside, I once (accidentally) kicked a retired navy seal in the nuts twice in one training session. Totally my bad, though he wore his belt pretty low. Still my fault! Anyway, he didn't go down. He ground his teeth and stiffened up a bit and laughed. The laughter was, I think, to prevent himself from breaking me, haha.
Anyway, don't assume a groin shot will automatically take someone down.
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wullie
Member
I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, there's no way you can prove anything!
Posts: 725
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Post by wullie on Mar 5, 2014 4:56:16 GMT -5
Anyway, don't assume a groin shot will automatically take someone down. when done intentionally, with venom 999 times out of a 1000 they will, and that one time they didn't it'll stop them long enough to for you to keep hitting them, the intention behind a groin shot in the first place is to do just that, stop them in their tracks and give you time to do something else
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Post by senshido on Mar 5, 2014 5:11:53 GMT -5
Of course I agree, gentlemen. But for the fun of it, I will play devil's advocate. It's not so much the punching that concerns me. I think we can hit whatever it is we set out to hit. No, the problem with not training head punches, is being less adept at dealing with punches directed at our heads. Individual aptitude plays a role in this, but it should be obvious that some direct training would silence the critics. I'm going to jump in and hopefully not start a lengthy debate on this (as Wullie stated it was not his intention) but I have to note the use of your words here "the problem with not training head punches" That part of my Kyokushin training is quite small, you may be surprised at how little time I devote to knockdown training i.e. not training head punches, the rest of the time, we ARE training for head punches.
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Post by meguro on Mar 5, 2014 8:29:20 GMT -5
Of course I agree, gentlemen. But for the fun of it, I will play devil's advocate. It's not so much the punching that concerns me. I think we can hit whatever it is we set out to hit. No, the problem with not training head punches, is being less adept at dealing with punches directed at our heads. Individual aptitude plays a role in this, but it should be obvious that some direct training would silence the critics. I'm going to jump in and hopefully not start a lengthy debate on this (as Wullie stated it was not his intention) but I have to note the use of your words here "the problem with not training head punches" That part of my Kyokushin training is quite small, you may be surprised at how little time I devote to knockdown training i.e. not training head punches, the rest of the time, we ARE training for head punches. Within the knockdown community your dojo is part of a small minority. Not many address this aspect of fighting. That it is important enough for you to devote the majority of your time to it is commendable.
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wullie
Member
I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, there's no way you can prove anything!
Posts: 725
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Post by wullie on Mar 5, 2014 8:34:48 GMT -5
Within the knockdown community your dojo is part of a small minority. Not many address this aspect of fighting. That it is important enough for you to devote the majority of your time to it is commendable. nearly every Dojo i've trained at over here trains head punches, so perhaps we're not part of a small minority
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