shugyo
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Proof Is On The Floor!!
Posts: 76
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Post by shugyo on May 11, 2014 11:17:30 GMT -5
Rules and regulations are great; they've their context, but after that, hit the head, don't hit the head, it's all up to the individual, and to be honest, I'm going to hit "you" wherever and whenever I can, including the head, and as often as I need to!!
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Post by meguro on May 19, 2014 7:42:53 GMT -5
First things first. I just watched some clips of a recent Kyokushin tournament, where a Russian fighter went down several times to illegal hits (punch to the jaw and kick to the groin ). It seems to me that these are the things we should be attending to first before anything else- mastering the money shots. If we were supermen, shouldn't we be on our guard for kryptonite? It is nice to have rules to protect us from illegal hits, but we all know how reliable those rules are.
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GJEC
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LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
Posts: 3,218
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Post by GJEC on May 19, 2014 10:46:36 GMT -5
Whenever this question rears its ugly head I always wonder why it's only asked in one direction.
"KD fighter gets caught by face punches" grabs more attention than "KD fighter gets attacked in street and uses his power and impact to punch bad guy in face"
*sighs*
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Post by kyokanrik on May 19, 2014 13:42:00 GMT -5
Whenever this question rears its ugly head I always wonder why it's only asked in one direction. "KD fighter gets caught by face punches" grabs more attention than "KD fighter gets attacked in street and uses his power and impact to punch bad guy in face" *sighs* It still doesn't negate the relevance of the issue that has been raised, be it fair or not. I'll try to explain it this way; Take other combat fighting styles (kickboxers, muay thai fighters, boxers), for instance. Defeating someone in the streets with 'face punches' would not be a headline grabber for them. For them, it is expected. See where I'm going?
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GJEC
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LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
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Post by GJEC on May 19, 2014 14:11:29 GMT -5
There's really no need to explain it in simple terms, I got it the first time I heard it in 1975. I just don't get this whole negative lets-talk-ourselves-down argument on a 'knockdown fighters' forum. Knockdown is a sport. Sport has rules. Gary
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Post by meguro on May 19, 2014 16:22:58 GMT -5
I don't know, Gary. I guess as I get older, get more prone to injury, and slow down in my ability to recover ( from exercise as well as injury), I become less enamored of the spirit test, and more keen on getting the job done quickly and painlessly, so that I can get home and relax in front of the TV. . I mean thunderous blows to thighs and pectoral muscles for little gain. Yes it is a testament to toughness, virility and all that, but a lucky (or sneaky) shot in the chops does point out a weakness. It is not just in keeping your hands up, you still need to guard your head from kicks and knees, but appreciating positioning, feinting, set-ups, etc. I suppose Enshin is a little different from Kyokushin because if you are close enough to grab, you are close enough to punch, so the awareness is built in. I like the head butt. How do you train students to deal with it ( not just dish it out)? My problem is not with the sport of knockdown. I don't plan on working the doors either, but that scenario perhaps is more likely to be encountered by the average karate student who walks down the street, to the garage, or into a pub. Would it be wrong to ensure that every white belt be a master of the head butt and sucker punch (defending against them as well)?
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GJEC
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LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
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Post by GJEC on May 19, 2014 16:37:48 GMT -5
Sorry meguro, I'd edited my post before seeing yours as it sounded a bit know it all.
The truth is I teach Enshin as a discipline and though I point out applications, if people JUST want SP I refer them to the gym owner who is a far more experienced street fighter than me.
I no longer teach the chest thumping spirito stuff I did as a kid. I expect control and attention to detail. But I do focus on what can be made effective rather than wooly stuff. I can see no benefit at all in self sabotage.
Gary
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Post by MMX on May 19, 2014 16:41:44 GMT -5
I don't know, Gary. I guess as I get older, get more prone to injury, and slow down in my ability to recover ( from exercise as well as injury), I become less enamored of the spirit test, and more keen on getting the job done quickly and painlessly, so that I can get home and relax in front of the TV. . I mean thunderous blows to thighs and pectoral muscles for little gain. Yes it is a testament to toughness, virility and all that, but a lucky (or sneaky) shot in the chops does point out a weakness. It is not just in keeping your hands up, you still need to guard your head from kicks and knees, but appreciating positioning, feinting, set-ups, etc. I suppose Enshin is a little different from Kyokushin because if you are close enough to grab, you are close enough to punch, so the awareness is built in. I like the head butt. How do you train students to deal with it ( not just dish it out)? My problem is not with the sport of knockdown. I don't plan on working the doors either, but that scenario perhaps is more likely to be encountered by the average karate student who walks down the street, to the garage, or into a pub. Would it be wrong to ensure that every white belt be a master of the head butt and sucker punch (defending against them as well)? One of the things I find about Enshin that makes it a bit more easily adaptible to street situations(and each dojo/sensei may vary..) but we spend a ton of time on positional advantage. That alone negates a lot of what is coming at you. We also spend some time in "street" type situations(usually only the upper belts). Again it will vary by dojo but I feel working on footwork and taking a tactical advantage will get you where you should be should that situation present itself.
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Post by meguro on May 19, 2014 16:50:40 GMT -5
When I think of knockdown, I do not think of Enshin. Take that as a compliment, Gary and MMX. What you guys do is different, progressive. Just being able to grab changes the game, makes it more realistic, IMO. I like grabbing.
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on May 20, 2014 6:09:12 GMT -5
Practicality is important to me but not the full picture.
Knockdown and especially Sabaki rules are an honest attempt to answer that age-old need:
"Show us what you're made of".
Getting up in front of a crowd and engaging someone who wants to defeat you is a rite of passage that few attempt and even less do well at. We shouldn't judge its worth to the participant on the basis of whether it works better or worse than dedicated SP systems. To me, SP really isn't their primary purpose.
Fitness, skill, self control and courage are all noble and life enhancing qualities that KD and SR promote and this forum should be proud of.
Gary
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Post by kyokanrik on May 20, 2014 11:42:47 GMT -5
There's really no need to explain it in simple terms, I got it the first time I heard it in 1975. I just don't get this whole negative lets-talk-ourselves-down argument on a 'knockdown fighters' forum. Knockdown is a sport. Sport has rules. Gary It would be wise not to view self evaluation of one's weakness as "negative talking down" of one's self. It could hinder a lot of growth in all aspects of life, that sort of closed minded pride.
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on May 20, 2014 13:21:34 GMT -5
Please explain the weakness I should self evaluate. I've won at the highest level, represented my country, worked on a door without criminal charges or hospital stays and been commended for saving lives in scary situations.
So to me KD and it's benefits have given me a lot to be thankful for physically and mentally. I focus on those benefits so if that's 'closed minded pride' I'm completely at ease with it.
I don't like to see people on a sport forum talking down the very thing we're set up to promote, that's all.
I leave the psychological stuff and introspection to theorists. Practical people make it happen. If it doesn't work for them, they realise if it works for others it's their application that's flawed, not the skill itself.
Gary
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Post by kyokanrik on May 21, 2014 16:18:59 GMT -5
Please explain the weakness I should self evaluate. I've won at the highest level, represented my country, worked on a door without criminal charges or hospital stays and been commended for saving lives in scary situations. So to me KD and it's benefits have given me a lot to be thankful for physically and mentally. I focus on those benefits so if that's 'closed minded pride' I'm completely at ease with it. I don't like to see people on a sport forum talking down the very thing we're set up to promote, that's all. I leave the psychological stuff and introspection to theorists. Practical people make it happen. If it doesn't work for them, they realise if it works for others it's their application that's flawed, not the skill itself. Gary Relax, you cannot reason until you do. I understand you are passionate, have "accomplishments", etc., mind that that very passion and one trackedness doesn't hinder..
Osu
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GJEC
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Post by GJEC on May 22, 2014 0:17:36 GMT -5
I'm relaxed kyokanrik I just love it when well meaning people offer me guidance on how to think and debate. OK - here's my point: Knockdown fighting and training has been a positive influence in my life. It has helped me get out of some awkward situations as I'm sensible enough to use the effective parts, not be hampered by the 'limitations'. Your turn. In your response please explain why you train in a style you appear to have so little faith in. Gary
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Post by Ros on May 23, 2014 2:43:57 GMT -5
I believe those who are finding an issue with it are those who are training in hopes that, if they one day have to defend themselves in a real-life confrontation, they can. Many tend to realize very quickly when one of these seld-defense/fighting situations arises that the lack of training on "head punches"(and the defense of them) is a major handicap. Major. And that's just a harsh reality about my beloved art Kyokushin. It doesn't matter how well trained our jodan-uke's are; if you aren't used to deflecting real blows coming at real speed, your jodan-uke's will not come to fruition during the heat of real battle. That's the issue that I find many people to have with Kyokushin. I'm going back to your first post in this thread Kyokanrik. I notice that you believe that those people who have an issue are those training for self-defense skills (and that there are 'many' of these and that the handicap is 'major'. So let's break that down a little bit: firstly, do you know any of these 'many' people? Secondly, imagine this conversation: "Hey, I was in a fight at the weekend. I got battered." "Really? That's terrible." "Yeah. I only lost because I don't train head punches." Really? Is that really the reason someone might come off worse in a confrontation? If there are really 'many' people who feel this way, then I would suggest they have far more basic self-protection techniques to work on. Everyone on here has also said that they do train head-punches in their dojo, so the 'many' would have to find a different excuse. P.S. Why do you think that refuting an argument has anything to do with closed-minded pride or one trackedness? If someone offers you a rebuttal, it would be courteous to either agree with the points made or counter in return. Thinly-disguised insults do nothing for your argument.
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