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Post by kyokanrik on May 24, 2014 16:42:46 GMT -5
If anyone was "insulted" by anyhing I've said, I suggest you get thicker skin. Period.
In regards to being invited to "prove my point" in some online debate, I'll decline.
Osu!
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GJEC
Member
LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
Posts: 3,218
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Post by GJEC on May 25, 2014 2:12:01 GMT -5
I don't feed trolls ... But in your case here's a biscuit. You've only been training in a Knockdown style for five minutes but already you're happy to tell us where we're going wrong. People who have trained for rather longer and made it work. Getting a little ahead of yourself, wouldn't you say? Yes, the tournament 'no punches to the face' rule is a limitation, but as has been repeatedly stated, no one here is stupid enough to follow those rules outside. Personally, I preferred headbutts, palms, elbows etc, all trained in the style but excluded on the mat. No confusion at all. Wearing - or not wearing - a gi was a useful clue as to what was appropriate at the time. 30 odd years of mess room banter gave me a pretty thick skin, so I'm not insulted in any way, just disappointed. Negativity helps no one so if - after about a year of training - you're already convinced it doesn't work FOR YOU, I'd suggest you're training in the wrong dojo and posting on the wrong forum. This is knockdownfighters.com, not knockdowndoubters.com Gary
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Post by kyokanrik on Jun 13, 2014 13:45:18 GMT -5
I don't feed trolls ... But in your case here's a biscuit. You've only been training in a Knockdown style for five minutes but already you're happy to tell us where we're going wrong. People who have trained for rather longer and made it work. Getting a little ahead of yourself, wouldn't you say? Yes, the tournament 'no punches to the face' rule is a limitation, but as has been repeatedly stated, no one here is stupid enough to follow those rules outside. Personally, I preferred headbutts, palms, elbows etc, all trained in the style but excluded on the mat. No confusion at all. Wearing - or not wearing - a gi was a useful clue as to what was appropriate at the time. 30 odd years of mess room banter gave me a pretty thick skin, so I'm not insulted in any way, just disappointed. Negativity helps no one so if - after about a year of training - you're already convinced it doesn't work FOR YOU, I'd suggest you're training in the wrong dojo and posting on the wrong forum. This is knockdownfighters.com, not knockdowndoubters.com Gary Resorting to name calling certainly doesn't help your cause any. Furthermore, it makes you seem a little insecure that you cannot even engage in a civil discussion, if the things said in the discussion aren't agreeable to you- without becoming so emotional. You shouldn't allow yourself to be broken down to having to resort to such "tactics" as name calling; especially by a complete stranger on the internet, no less. I almost don't know whether to chuckle at you or hand you a kleenex after reading your last few replies. And please, stop hiding behind your "knockdown experience". You're experienced in knockdown, I'm experienced in LIFE. Let's keep things in their proper perspective. All you've been doing since you've replied is hide behind 'the years', "I got it the first time I heard it in 1975."(lol), "I've been doing this for 80 years yadayadayada nobody can't tell me nuffin!", "I've won at the highest level, represented my country, worked on a door without criminal charges or hospital stays and been commended for saving lives" --are you done beating your chest yet? Do you feel better? I'm not impressed nor moved in the slightest, Gary. It's a valid concern that I brought up, one that is shared by many within the knockdown community(where I first heard such concerns, and why so many fighters cross-train). Examining these possible flaws in knockdown is exactly what propelled Enshin and all other knockdown offshoots to be formed. There was a feeling something was "missing". I'm sure the discussions that lead up to those conclusions weren't pretty, and I can only imagine the fit you would've thrown had you been a fly on the wall of some of those convos. I brought up valid concerns. I do not apologize that it hurt your feelings.
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Post by andyc on Jun 14, 2014 15:48:45 GMT -5
kyokanrik - hi!
This is my first ever (long-ish) posting on knockdown fighters so please excuse any unintentional breaking of the rules.
I note, with great interest, your post containing the following "I believe those who are finding an issue with it are those who are training in hopes that, if they one day have to defend themselves in a real-life confrontation, they can. Many tend to realize very quickly when one of these seld-defense/fighting situations arises that the lack of training on "head punches"(and the defense of them) is a major handicap. Major. And that's just a harsh reality about my beloved art Kyokushin.  It doesn't matter how well trained our jodan-uke's are; if you aren't used to deflecting real blows coming at real speed, your jodan-uke's will not come to fruition during the heat of real battle. That's the issue that I find many people to have with Kyokushin."
and my heart really goes out to you.
Years ago, we were all warned of the 'you get what you train for etc etc" - and to a point, it was true - especially for the traditional Karateka/JuJitsuka. However, and I have to point this out here but the very way that combative sports people train (Kyokushinkai, Enshin, Judo, Boxing, wrestling et al), almost nullify your argument.
I have a very mixed background (military - which doesn't count a lot for physical hand-to-hand (please be wary of those who claim otherwise), but does for 'mindset'; traditional Karate (Wado Ryu and Shotokan), traditional JuJitsu and Judo along with boxing & reality based training under some very well known UK instructors. More recently (3, nearly 4 months) knockdown Karate under an outstanding coach and former international competitor and you know what?
It's not just about the physical!
Traditional arts (not knocking as I still practice & teach on a small 1:1 basis traditional kata and bunkai), tend to focus a little too much on the hypothetical - and not nearly on what it actually takes to get there and fight someone (face to face) who wants to rip your balls off. Knockdown, be it Enshin, Kyokushinkai or whatever does (and indeed, so does boxing for that matter)…and that's most of the battle.
It takes very little adjustment in your own personal training to compensate for head strikes/defence.
I don't think anyone has been upset by your posts, possibly more curious as (I believe that) you've only practised for a few months. My advice would be to put your ego aside and just go 100% into your training - hopefully, in a few months or years (at the latest) you'll realise that a) your original argument is invalid and b) you actually don't want to ever have to fight for real as it's a completely unfulfilling (not to mention soul destroying experience - regardless of the outcome).
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GJEC
Member
LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
Posts: 3,218
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Post by GJEC on Jun 15, 2014 3:51:54 GMT -5
Great first post AndyC I train with Andy and it's a pleasure to do so. Throughout all my training I've made a point of listening to those who can tell me - from personal experience - what WORKS. No offence intended kyokanrik, but I'm really not that interested in what (you tell me other people say) WON'T work. Gary
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tmd
Member
Think Fast Hit hard
Posts: 242
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Post by tmd on Jul 28, 2014 15:56:15 GMT -5
Why do people still get Kyokushin and Knockdown confused? Understanding your Kyokushin helps you be a better Knockdown fighter, training in and competing in Knockdown definitely makes you a more well rounded individual. Both have their merits, both have their weeknessess, best advise I can offer is don't train at a dojo that only does 100% of either.
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Post by MMX on Jul 28, 2014 17:15:35 GMT -5
Good to see you around again TMD. Don't be a stranger.
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tmd
Member
Think Fast Hit hard
Posts: 242
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Post by tmd on Jul 29, 2014 2:43:45 GMT -5
Thanks, Will try and post more fella, I have to say the aps got better and easier to use.... Now if I can just get my life to be less hectic! Will post an update in my training log rather than cause a derail.
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Post by kyokanrik on Aug 1, 2014 19:43:56 GMT -5
kyokanrik - hi! This is my first ever (long-ish) posting on knockdown fighters so please excuse any unintentional breaking of the rules. I note, with great interest, your post containing the following "I believe those who are finding an issue with it are those who are training in hopes that, if they one day have to defend themselves in a real-life confrontation, they can. Many tend to realize very quickly when one of these seld-defense/fighting situations arises that the lack of training on "head punches"(and the defense of them) is a major handicap. Major. And that's just a harsh reality about my beloved art Kyokushin.  It doesn't matter how well trained our jodan-uke's are; if you aren't used to deflecting real blows coming at real speed, your jodan-uke's will not come to fruition during the heat of real battle. That's the issue that I find many people to have with Kyokushin." and my heart really goes out to you. Years ago, we were all warned of the 'you get what you train for etc etc" - and to a point, it was true - especially for the traditional Karateka/JuJitsuka. However, and I have to point this out here but the very way that combative sports people train (Kyokushinkai, Enshin, Judo, Boxing, wrestling et al), almost nullify your argument. I have a very mixed background (military - which doesn't count a lot for physical hand-to-hand (please be wary of those who claim otherwise), but does for 'mindset'; traditional Karate (Wado Ryu and Shotokan), traditional JuJitsu and Judo along with boxing & reality based training under some very well known UK instructors. More recently (3, nearly 4 months) knockdown Karate under an outstanding coach and former international competitor and you know what? It's not just about the physical! Traditional arts (not knocking as I still practice & teach on a small 1:1 basis traditional kata and bunkai), tend to focus a little too much on the hypothetical - and not nearly on what it actually takes to get there and fight someone (face to face) who wants to rip your balls off. Knockdown, be it Enshin, Kyokushinkai or whatever does (and indeed, so does boxing for that matter)…and that's most of the battle. It takes very little adjustment in your own personal training to compensate for head strikes/defence. I don't think anyone has been upset by your posts, possibly more curious as (I believe that) you've only practised for a few months. My advice would be to put your ego aside and just go 100% into your training - hopefully, in a few months or years (at the latest) you'll realise that a) your original argument is invalid and b) you actually don't want to ever have to fight for real as it's a completely unfulfilling (not to mention soul destroying experience - regardless of the outcome). Thanks for your input, Andy. A different perspective is always welcome in any discussion I am a part of, and much of yours is valid and well thought out. But then you start "advising me"(lol) to "put my ego aside"(when in actuality that is the very thing-ego-that those who cannot ackowledge the truth in knockdown's glaring weaknesses are drowing in and need to set aside).. ..suggesting that I "go 100%" in training(as if I already don't?) - that type audacity is reserved for those who actually train with me, if you don't mind. You are way out of line to make such assumptions about someone you do not know. Someone you have never met. Making such assumptions with nothing to go on but internet correspondence calls your character into question and that may not be wholly fair to you, so be mindful of that type of behavior. You even went so far as to suggest that I'm "wrong", due to my having only been "practicing knockdown karate" for a little over a year now. My time in knockdown has little to NO bearing on my opinions on fighting; because, as you have already so eloquently enlightened me to, I haven't been in knockdown long enough to use it as my knowledge base for fighting. Rather, I speak from actual fighting EXPERIENCE, in the streets.. experience with REAL fisticuffs- not body shot, body shot, surprise mawashi geri combat. The concerns I brought up about knockdown are in relation to those actual fighting experiences, not knockdown karate... ..concerns which happen to be the very reason(to a certain extent) why certain specific offshoots were even formed in the first place.. .. concerns that are valid and were/are obviously shared by many.. and these concerns have existed since the beginning of knockdown, and it doesn't take 20 years in knockdown to reach those conclusions. I do owe you one more thanks though, for you gave me one heck of a belly buster laugh this evening with this procclamation: "you actually don't ever want to have to fight for real, it is completely unfulfilling and soul destroying" *chuckle *chuckle *chuckle You're telling that to a man who has fought his entire life (until adulthood) and loved every minute of it. And I mean fighting, as in actual street violence- not kicking people out of local bars type stuff, or fighting in the school yard. I have countless scars up and down my physique from fighting, worn very proudly might I add -most notably a 4 inch scar across the back of my neck that I recieved from a boxcutter that "magically appeared" in the guy's hand.. .. the other, an equally long scar across my stomach that I received in yet another random, spontaneous fight that I thoroughly enjoyed. And I loved every minute of it. From every blow to every drop of blood, to the look of horror in the other guy's eyes when he realizes he can't make you stop(i've seen that look countless times), to the aches in your jaw and the blood in your mouth the next day.. I love it all. I've only "stopped fighting" because I grew up and now have responsibilities. I am no longer only accountable for myself, therefore, my behvior had to change. Changed it a loooong time ago, too.. but inside I am always going to be the same fighter, though. Some of us are wired that way and it makes us no less compassionate, nor any less "human", than say, i don't know.. someone like yourself who is "unfulfilled" by fighting, and whose "soul gets destroyed" by fighting? I cannot for the life of me relate to such sentiments and I for one am glad that I cannot. And, well, I just thought it very hilarious to read your er, "confession". Please don't take offense, as I am really mainly poking fun at you at this point. Stay the way you are, in regards to your feelings about fighting. It's not for everyone
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GJEC
Member
LOUGHBOROUGH ENSHIN
Posts: 3,218
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Post by GJEC on Aug 2, 2014 1:31:13 GMT -5
Wow!
For a man who abhors chest beating that must have been hard to write.
This forum - since its inception - has been a pleasant place to exchange ideas with none of the drama and silliness of other forums. Just like knockdown really, benefits without fantasy.
I hope - sincerely - that it remains that way.
Gary
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Post by kyokanrik on Aug 2, 2014 18:19:09 GMT -5
Wow! For a man who abhors chest beating that must have been hard to write. This forum - since its inception - has been a pleasant place to exchange ideas with none of the drama and silliness of other forums. Just like knockdown really, benefits without fantasy. I hope - sincerely - that it remains that way. Gary ...says the poster who calls people who came here to peacefully exchange ideas, "trolls"- demonishing them to the level of being "tossed biscuits". *edit to add * - one only needs to simply read the thread, to see whose negative vibes and energy has caused the alleged "drama and silliness" this thread has seemingy reached. Sounds to me silliness has been here for quite some time
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shugyo
Member
Proof Is On The Floor!!
Posts: 76
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Post by shugyo on Aug 4, 2014 9:15:19 GMT -5
The no head/no face argument is just that, an argument. In that, opinions will vary depending on whom one is talking to. It's just a rule for safety sake for its competitors. I put no value on the style based on the rules because they're not, imho, a complete snapshot of the style. Imho, Kyokushin has nothing to prove TO ANYONE ON THE FACE OF THIS EARTH, especially with the argument that because head/face shots aren't allowed it's ineffective; not a valid argument, imho. "Who would want to take a style that doesn't allow head/face shots?" Well, 100's of thousands, that's who. The question is unfair and the question is birthed from one not knowing any better.
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Post by kyokanrik on Aug 4, 2014 19:54:55 GMT -5
"The no head/no face argument is just that, an argument." Eh..not quite.. it is only an "argument" to a person who is too touchy about the topic to conduct a civil "discussion".. for whatever reason that touchiness may be..
For example:
"I just don't get this whole negative lets-talk-ourselves-down argument on a 'knockdown fighters' forum"
(person obviously views the self evaluation of one's potential weaknesses as "negative" and "talking down", the best recipe for one's own arrested development.)
..and then there's this gem:
"Please explain the weakness I should self evaluate. I've won at the highest level" .........................
Moving on..
Most of us (without having to have been in knockdown karate for 60 years), with just using our simple ability of reasoning, common sense, and personal experience, can accurately conclude that if you don't train on a regular basis punching people in the face, nor train on a regular basis in defending punches to your face, including/especially sparring, then the lack of those skills will show when put into a position where you have to execute those skills, and execute them in real-time, against an attacker with real intent.
It is flat out delusional to believe otherwise and there's no way to sugar coat it.
Or to think that such a skill set can be supplemented -in the heat of battle no less- by simply aiming your punches a few inches higher. *sigh
Does it mean you will get your butt whipped every time you have a physical confrontation due to a lack of that type of training?
No. Of course not.
Nor does it automatically mean that it's the reason you got your butt whipped.. (I shouldn't have to note the above two things, they are such obvious givens- but obviously some do need it pointed out)
What it does mean, though, is that you will get popped in your mouth more often in a fight than you would if you were adept to seeing punches flying at your face on a regular basis.
But hey, what do I know.
*chuckle
Somebody quick!, alert the Boxing world! They're wasting their time on all that training they do to combat face punching. Tell those suckers to just make simple adjustments on the fly!
It's just a rule for safety sake for its competitors. And a very good rule, too. One that I hope would never change, as I see zero advantage in allowing face punching in bare knuckle knockdown tourneys.
I put no value on the style based on the rules because they're not, imho, a complete snapshot of the style. I try to explain this very point to non-knockdown people all the time. I tell them, just because the rules forbid it in our tournaments doesn't mean we that don't train it at all in the dojo.
But at the same time while telling them this, I'm not soo disillusioned by my love for the art that I am under the impression that we train face punching enough, either.
'Enough' for "what", one may ask?... refer to my original post, would be my answer (and if others wouldve done that as well then this post wouldn't have even been necessary)
..the argument that because head/face shots aren't allowed it's ineffective; not a valid argument Agreed. And one would be silly to assume it to be an ineffective style just because of that.. but hey, let them assume.. makes our job much easier in the event we have to face such people who think that way
"Who would want to take a style that doesn't allow head/face shots?" Well, 100's of thousands, that's who. The question is unfair and the question is birthed from one not knowing any better. Agreed again.. to an extent..
The question does in fact come from not knowing any better, maybe.. ..but it is indeed also a very fair, very valid, and understandable question/concern.
Funny how that's essentially the only thing I was getting at in my original posts.. that such concerns were fair and valid in being brought up..
Didn't know it would 'crush so many ppls' corn'. *chuckle
Someone also needs to tell all of the founders, of all of Kyokushin's offshoots, that they were wrong for forming their styles based on percieved weaknesses they saw in Kyokushin (amongst many other reasons, of course). How dare they!!
*chuckle
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Post by Ros on Aug 5, 2014 2:23:58 GMT -5
I have countless scars up and down my physique from fighting, worn very proudly might I add -most notably a 4 inch scar across the back of my neck that I recieved from a boxcutter that "magically appeared" in the guy's hand.. .. the other, an equally long scar across my stomach that I received in yet another random, spontaneous fight that I thoroughly enjoyed. And I loved every minute of it. From every blow to every drop of blood, to the look of horror in the other guy's eyes when he realizes he can't make you stop(i've seen that look countless times), to the aches in your jaw and the blood in your mouth the next day.. I love it all. Some of us are wired that way and it makes us no less compassionate, nor any less "human", than say, i don't know.. someone like yourself who is "unfulfilled" by fighting, and whose "soul gets destroyed" by fighting? So, let's get this straight - you loved every minute of drawing blood and you loved the look of horror in the other guy's eyes when he realises he can't make you stop. I'll repeat that once more, so you can really see how utterly abhorrent that is: you loved the look of horror in the other guy's eyes when he realises he can't make you stop...and you don't think this makes you any less compassionate or human? Anyone who doesn't think that getting into a fight is the absolute last resort when all other methods to avoid confrontation have failed, is an idiot. Anyone who enjoys it and is proud to show off their scars is even more of an idiot in my opinion. Even though the original point of this thread wasn't to have a discussion about the 'lack of head punches' in knockdown we have all responded to your points, Kyokanrik and rather than discuss those points you have been rudely sarcastic and generally aggressive. Please don't repeat your points again, I can't imagine anyone wants to respond further. People are on this forum because they want a friendly place to correspond and exchange ideas about knockdown. Let's keep it that way.
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Post by kyokanrik on Aug 5, 2014 10:28:57 GMT -5
If you decide to read the thread you will see that I in fact did post a "friendly exchange of idea", to which I was tossed a biscuit, accused of not going 100% in training by someone who knows nothing about me, and now called an idiot by someone who is obviously still extremely naïve about a lot of things in this world with their koom-bye-yah bleeding heart sentiments on fighting- with no idea of who I was fighting, under what conditions, and why.
Yeah, this certainly seems like the place where one can come and exchange friendly ideas
I am not responsible for thin-skinned posters who take offense to any opinion that differs from theirs, especially when I've done nothing but delivered said opinions in a respectable manner.
Nor am I required to sit idly by without responding.
Direct the "let's keep it peaceful" speech to whom it concerns.
Thank you
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